Evidence of meeting #12 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cerb.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Tammy Schirle  Professor, Department of Economics, Wilfrid Laurier University, As an Individual
Kim Moody  Chief Executive Officer and Director, Canadian Tax Advisory, Moodys Tax Law LLP
Michelle E. Guy  Managing Partner, Guardian Law
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Marie-France Lafleur
David Onley  Senior Lecturer, University of Toronto Scarborough, As an Individual
Bill Adair  Executive Director, Spinal Cord Injury Canada
Olivier Villeneuve  Director, Mouvement Personne D’Abord de Saint-Jérome, Sainte-Thérèse et Saint-Eustache, Fédération des Mouvements Personne D’Abord du Québec
Louise Bourgeois  President, Fédération des Mouvements Personne D’Abord du Québec

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 12 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities. Pursuant to the orders of reference of March 24, April 11 and April 20, 2020, the committee is meeting for the purpose of receiving evidence concerning matters related to the government's response to the COVID-19 pandemic.

Today's meeting is taking place by video conference, and the proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. The webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you are ready to speak, please click on the microphone icon to activate your mike.

Before we get started, I would like to remind everyone to please use the language channel of the language they are speaking.

I would now like to thank the witnesses for joining us today. With us, appearing as an individual, we have Dr. Tammy Schirle, professor, department of economics, Wilfrid Laurier University; from Moodys Tax Law, Kim Moody, CEO and director of Canadian tax advisory; and, we're on the lookout for our third witness, who may be joining us while the opening statements are being presented, and that is, from Guardian Law, Michelle Guy, managing partner.

Dr. Schirle, please proceed with your opening remarks.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Point of order.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Ms. Kusie.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Mr. Chair, I just noticed in the lineup for our meeting on the 25th that there are more than two witnesses per hour. As was discussed in the subcommittee meeting, we agreed to go to 10 minutes for two witnesses per hour. I would ask, please, that we figure out a way to resolve this. I recognize that once we've invited witnesses we don't want to uninvite them, but perhaps we need to consider maintaining five or seven minutes until we are able to completely implement what was agreed upon at the subcommittee.

I bring this to your attention now since it's Friday and our next meeting is on Monday.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Thank you, Ms. Kusie. I think the suggestion that you put forward is reasonable and in keeping with the spirit of the discussions that we've had at the subcommittee. I'd be happy to continue this discussion after the meeting. I don't think we need to tie up the witnesses' time, but frankly, I agree with your approach.

Dr. Schirle, please proceed with your opening remarks. You have seven minutes.

11:05 a.m.

Dr. Tammy Schirle Professor, Department of Economics, Wilfrid Laurier University, As an Individual

Good morning, Mr. Chair. I thank you and the members of the committee for the opportunity to join you today.

As context for my statement, I am a labour economist. My research and teaching involve income support programs, the experience of women in the labour market, retirement decisions and the relationship between work and health.

Today I will focus on two related items. First, I will discuss the medium-term policy response needed over the next few months with concern for that part of the workforce bearing the brunt of the COVID-19 shutdown. Second, I will discuss long-term investments needed to strengthen our caregiving infrastructure in the interest of coming out of this recession with better support for Canada's long-term economic growth.

On the first point, I hope the April job numbers represent the depth of the COVID-19 impact on the loss of paid work. Moving forward, we need to think about the duration of joblessness and where jobless durations will be the most severe. I expect those who first lost paid work in COVID-19 shutdowns will also be the last to return to paid work. Those losses were predominantly experienced by women in public-facing jobs. Moreover, those losses were felt by those with the lowest wages, the lowest seniority, with hourly paid work, and by often the youngest workers.

As provinces move to reopen, we expect some industries to recover quickly. For example, I do not anticipate the April losses in manufacturing and construction to persist. Some services will rebound partially as health and safety requirements will prevent full reopening. Other services will struggle to find sufficient demand for reopening until customers feel confident with regard to their own health and their own financial security. Ultimately, this means some sectors will be delayed in offering paid work to former employees. Of course, some paid work will never rebound. Some jobs are gone. I don't expect a full recovery to come quickly.

For the jobs that become available, decisions to return to work are not always simple. First and foremost, workers must trust their employers to offer safe working conditions and will need to find safe transportation. With significant workplace outbreaks in mind, people will weigh the risk posed to themselves and ultimately to their families when deciding if it is worth taking a job.

Second, many families will have to find ways to manage their caregiving roles, whether that is child care, elder care or caring for other family members unable to care for themselves. We know this work falls primarily to women. With this in mind, we need to ensure policy in the coming months is designed to offer continued support to those unable to return to work when the CERB benefits run out. For some, this may happen in July. Support could come in a form similar to EI, while recognizing EI's coverage gaps, and be paired with services that support job searches and training for those permanently displaced. That training could focus on moving many women from low-paid work in female-dominated occupations to higher-paid work in comparably skilled, male-dominated occupations.

Income supports need to be designed with partial return to work in mind. Allowances for partial returns will facilitate the sharing of caregiving responsibilities across family members, allowing both mom and dad, for example, to take some time away from work to juggle kids' schedules rather than mom having to take the full departure.

Current CERB structures do not facilitate this type of transition. This brings me to the second item I will discuss today. I think the impact of the crisis on women and their work, both paid and unpaid, has made it clear to more people that our caregiving infrastructure is inadequate. We need to build modern, efficient and reliable infrastructure to manage this part of our economy if we want to see further productivity gains and speed up our recovery.

What do I mean by infrastructure? After previous recessions, we promoted shovel-ready infrastructure projects like road building to help stimulate the economy. Roads are part of our transportation infrastructure allowing us to more easily get people to work and move goods to market, trading beyond our own communities. No single individual or firm would build this infrastructure independently because individual benefits are not large enough to incentivize their construction. We build the roads with public funds precisely because it supports the entire economy and promotes economic growth. We then hire people, train them and pay them well to maintain that infrastructure. It is a large, long-term investment with ongoing costs that supports a well-functioning economy.

Historically, Canadian caregiving infrastructure was designed as a highly decentralized system. Individuals, mostly women, were responsible for providing care to family members and neighbours unable to care for themselves. This was done at a very high cost. Economists agree that opportunity costs are just as important as any other, and forgone wages for each person involved in caregiving quickly add up. With no training for many caregivers, many vulnerable people lack sufficient care. Those without family members available to help would simply go without.

Today we have built a small system for caregiving, the scale of which varies by province, but it remains highly decentralized and continues to constrain the work opportunities of many women. We can do better.

With serious investments in child care and long-term care centres we can assure a stable and reliable network of caregivers. This would allow those previously constrained by caregiving responsibilities to specialize where they are most productive, whether that is in a caregiving field or other field of work.

A shift towards specialization in each person's field of comparative advantage, combined with potential economies of scale, would boost Canadian productivity of labour and ultimately of economic growth.

I do not pretend this is a small investment. It's huge, but the current cost of our decentralized, inefficient and often substandard caregiving system is also huge. We need to fully recognize the costs associated with that system.

I also do not pretend this is simple, but I think that building this infrastructure with our provinces, territories and indigenous communities is worth the effort.

I thank you for your time and would appreciate any questions from the members.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Thank you very much, Dr. Schirle.

We'll now go to Mr. Moody for seven minutes, please.

11:10 a.m.

Kim Moody Chief Executive Officer and Director, Canadian Tax Advisory, Moodys Tax Law LLP

Good morning, committee members. Thank you for the opportunity to appear to discuss the government's response to the COVID-19 pandemic.

My name is Kim Moody. I'm a chartered professional accountant and the CEO and director of Canadian tax advisory services for Moodys Tax Law and Moodys Private Client in Calgary, Alberta. I have a long history of serving the Canadian tax profession through a variety of leadership positions, including chair of the Canadian Tax Foundation, co-chair of the joint committee on taxation of the Canadian Bar Association and CPA Canada, and chair of the Society of Trust and Estate Practitioners Canada.

I intend to use my opening remarks to briefly comment on some of the challenges that we are experiencing with the Canada emergency response benefit, to provide some straightforward suggestions to address those challenges, and to briefly discuss some additional benefits for seniors.

To begin, I would like to commend the government for responding quickly to implement the CERB. It's obvious that a quick response, as compared to a perfect response, was the preferred approach, and I certainly agree with that. The CERB has definitely put money into the pockets of Canadians who are in a very challenging spot to provide for themselves and their families. With no rule book on how to respond to such an unusual challenge, the government, again, needs to be commended for its quick response.

However, now that we are two months into this crisis, with the overall picture certainly more clear than it was at the beginning, the simplicity, ease and quickness of the receipt of funds is also exposing challenges and unintended consequences. While some of these challenges have been widely reported, here are some that we are experiencing with clients and friends.

People are receiving double CERB payments. Within our firm, we know of numerous children and friends of clients who are receiving $4,000 per month, and they're wondering what to do about that.

People who are clearly not eligible to receive the CERB, usually because they did not meet the $5,000 total income requirement for 2019 or the previous 12 months from the date of application, or have not met the requirement of being out of work for at least 14 consecutive days for reasons related to COVID-19—there are some buddies of my son who were working and who applied for the CERB—are receiving the funds. They are often being encouraged to apply by someone they know.

People who were temporarily laid off are refusing to go back to work after being offered their jobs back, and instead want to continue to receive the CERB. While I'm not an employment lawyer, it seems to me that such people may have quit their employment voluntarily, which is the statutory language that I'll refer to in a second. If that is correct, then such a person would not be eligible to continue to receive the CERB, pursuant to subsection 6(2) of the Canada Emergency Response Benefit Act. Some employment lawyers I know have confirmed such treatment; however, I'm not seeing any enforcement of this provision whatsoever.

The CERB is appearing to be a real barrier and competition to hiring employees as employers start hiring. We have had numerous reports amongst our clients and friends of former employees preferring to be on a CERB vacation rather than return to work. We are seeing and experiencing this especially with part-time employees.

For example, my sister and brother-in-law own and operate a successful bakery in the Calgary Farmers' Market. At the beginning of the crisis, they laid off most of their staff because of the expected decline in revenues. As the crisis progressed, the demand for bread increased and far exceeded expectations. Accordingly, they needed to hire back some of their employees and/or hire new employees. Suffice it to say, it has been a difficult process to hire the required employees when the business is competing with the CERB. That's real.

Media outlets have recently reported on a memo written to Employment and Social Development Canada staff who process CERB applications that suggests they should approve the applications, even if a person has quit voluntarily, if a person was fired for cause, or if the overall application was contentious. It appears that such applications will be later reviewed. This is shocking to me and to many Canadians. While speed over perfection was clearly the preferred approach, it is not clear why a purposeful eye-closing to a review of contentious or even possibly fraudulent applications should occur. Based on our firm's experience, one could assume, reasonably, that 10% of applications may have issues.

With the PBO estimating that the CERB program will cost Canada $35.4 billion, 10% of that amount is $3.54 billion. That is a large number by any measure. Let's put it into perspective.

In 2019 the Canada Revenue Agency released its fifth report on the so-called tax gap, focusing on corporate taxes. Other reports released by the CRA examined sales tax fraud, domestic tax evasion and the use of offshore tax havens. The 2019 corporate report estimates that in the 2014 taxation year, Canadian corporations managed to pay somewhere between $9.4 billion and $11.4 billion less than they should have in taxes.

Personally, I have real trouble with those estimates. Anecdotally, I believe those are wildly high, but that's just me. Let's adjust that estimate down to something in the more believable category, somewhere in the range of $3 billion to $5 billion.

The fourth tax gap report, released in June 2018, discussed the international tax gap and personal taxes. The CRA stated as follows:

Based on international audits completed between 2014 to 2015 and 2016 to 2017, almost $1 billion in income was uncovered and assessed from 370 individuals, 200 corporations and a small number of trusts. The additional tax identified was $284 million. Of this, 23% was attributed to individuals and 77% to corporations and trusts linked to those [individuals].

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Could I get you to wrap it up, please. You're over your time. Thanks.

11:20 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer and Director, Canadian Tax Advisory, Moodys Tax Law LLP

Kim Moody

All right.

These recoveries reflect the significant investments in the CRA to audit so-called offshore activities of Canadians. Potential CERB fraud and leakage are significantly comparable. With no upfront integrity checks, and leaving audits and integrity checks to the back end, obviously this will decrease the probability of recovering funds.

Do I have maybe one minute, Mr. Chair, to wrap up?

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

You have less than a minute, but go ahead, yes.

11:20 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer and Director, Canadian Tax Advisory, Moodys Tax Law LLP

Kim Moody

Okay.

Given the above, I have the following suggestions: One, start administering carefully, perhaps using some of the checks and balances that currently exist within the EI system as to whether employees are effectively quitting their jobs if they refuse to come back to work after being temporarily laid off. Two, introduce legislation that eliminates a person from eligibility for CERB if they have refused a reasonable job offer to work. Three, ensure that contentious applications are carefully reviewed before being approved, with appropriate investments being made in that area. Finally, develop a plan that envisions how the income supports, including CERB and the interaction between wage subsidies, are ultimately withdrawn, and consider the impacts that such withdrawals will have on long-term economic recovery.

Very briefly, with regard to seniors, I suggest that—

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Thank you, Mr. Moody. We're well past time. You will undoubtedly get a chance to make those points in response to questions.

11:20 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer and Director, Canadian Tax Advisory, Moodys Tax Law LLP

Kim Moody

Thanks very much.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

We will now go to Ms. Guy.

Welcome. You have the floor for seven minutes.

11:20 a.m.

Michelle E. Guy Managing Partner, Guardian Law

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to address the government with respect to the response to COVID-19.

As a matter of introduction, I'm a family law lawyer in Vancouver, B.C. I own the firm called Guardian Law. I've been practising family law for 12 years. I'm concerned about the impact on families that depend on child and spousal support for the purpose of meeting their day-to-day needs and about what is happening, because there is no federal program in order to fill that gap of income.

In my practice, nearly all of my files end up in some sort of child or spousal support. As you may know, child support arises from and is prescribed by the federal child support guidelines. Spousal support is determined, in almost all cases, under the federal spousal support advisory guidelines. Under paragraph 11(1)(b) of the Divorce Act, the court actually cannot grant a divorce if there isn't child support in place and being paid.

As a matter of public policy, spousal and child support are critical tools to ensure equality between households and ensure that the household bearing greater responsibility for the care of children, which in most cases is the household where there's a woman, has a stable income and is compensated for the limits that parenting places on the parent's ability to engage in the workforce. Spousal and child support are widely accepted by society as necessary in ensuring fairness of income distribution.

Due to COVID-19, many employees have been furloughed, or people having businesses have suffered significant reductions in their incomes due to business closures. As a result, payers are in a position where they are significantly reducing or terminating spousal support and child support altogether. Unfortunately, clients have been coming to me, and they are completely desperate. There is no help available to them, because with CERB, the definition of income does not include child support or spousal support.

As well, the wage subsidy doesn't consider the payment of child support or spousal support to be any sort of wage—

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Ms. Guy, I'm sorry to interrupt.

I just got a note that we're having significant difficulty with interpretation. Would you happen to have a headset?

11:25 a.m.

Managing Partner, Guardian Law

Michelle E. Guy

Unfortunately, I don't. I asked someone to bring one, but due to the time difference, they weren't able to bring it on time.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Okay.

I think Ms. Gill has a point of order. Is it about the same issue I just talked about?

11:25 a.m.

Bloc

Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC

I cannot hear you. The sound is not loud enough. There has been no interpretation since the beginning. That is why I was trying to say something.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Okay, thank you.

I'm looking to the clerk and to the interpreters to see if there's anything we can do.

11:25 a.m.

Managing Partner, Guardian Law

Michelle E. Guy

Would it assist you if I were to speak more slowly?

11:25 a.m.

Bloc

Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC

There has not been any interpretation since the beginning. I don't know whether it is due to how fast we are speaking, but I think there is rather another issue. There is no interpretation.

May 22nd, 2020 / 11:25 a.m.

Bloc

Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Mr. Chair, I have noted the same thing as Ms. Gill. It has been like this from the beginning. It is probably due to the fact that the speaker has no microphone. That should be resolved, as we cannot hear her at all.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Okay.

I'll ask our technical people to come in here. I presume it's because of the sound quality that we don't have interpretation. Is there anything we can do to resolve that?