Evidence of meeting #4 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was study.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Brittany Collier  Committee Researcher
Elizabeth Cahill  Committee Researcher
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Evelyn Lukyniuk

March 12th, 2020 / 3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Good afternoon, everyone.

I call to order the fourth meeting of the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

Today we are on committee business and are in public. The first order of business is to let you know that the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure was working very hard on your behalf on Tuesday, and a summary of their work is in front of you. As you know, everything that happens at the subcommittee is in the form of a recommendation to this committee, so it would be in order to consider their work and to determine whether to adopt, reject or amend it.

The floor is open.

Ms. Kusie.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Mr. Chair, as the official opposition, we had a discussion yesterday. We are satisfied with the work and the decisions of the subcommittee. We hope that stands for the government as well as the other opposition parties.

Thank you.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

There is one thing that I neglected to do.

We have with us, Brittany Collier, an analyst who works with the Senate Standing Committee on Aboriginal Peoples. The Senate has studied the issue of indigenous housing quite extensively, and Ms. Collier prepared a draft work plan that was examined by the subcommittee.

I would ask for your indulgence to perhaps allow her tell us a bit about the work that was done in the Senate to set the stage. We will then come back to the work of the subcommittee.

Ms. Collier.

3:30 p.m.

Brittany Collier Committee Researcher

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Essentially, the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples did two major studies, one on first nations housing and infrastructure, and another on housing within the region of Inuit Nunangat. The housing and infrastructure study was done over a year and a half, with the committee hearing from a significant number of witnesses. The committee released an interim report in February 2015, as well as a final report in June 2015.

In terms of housing in Inuit Nunangat, which as I mentioned are the Inuit regions of Canada, the committee studied that issue for four months and released the report in 2017.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Mr. Vaughan.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON

The policy gap we're trying to study is actually separate and distinct from those two reports. It's separate and distinct in a couple of very important ways.

The three national indigenous organizations, and specifically the ITK, have dedicated funding through indigenous infrastructure. The challenge we're facing in this country is that there is no specific funding stream for jurisdictions outside the ITK, the Métis Nation and the Assembly of First Nations reserve and band council governance.

For the issue that has been brought to the attention of housing providers in cities and activists around this file right across the country, we're looking to focus on studying those areas that are not funded, not the areas that are funded. There is a clear indication that we need to increase funding in the three NIOs, but there is absolutely no dedicated funding and support structure or funding mechanism, nor a national organization yet around urban, rural and northern housing strategies outside the treaty system.

The treaties in the north are modern treaties and their members are not voting members as part of the AFN. Inuit people living in Ottawa are not part of the ITK or part of the governance for the funding stream for the ITK. People living in rural communities outside of urban centres are often challenged in terms of accessing infrastructure programs because of the way in which they're built. There is no indigenous-led and indigenous-designed or delivered housing program in these three spaces. That is why the motion is sculpted specifically the way it is. It's why it's directed specifically the way it is. While there are some very good names on the list— I've vetted them with indigenous caucus members in the House—bringing in the AFN to talk about a housing program where it doesn't serve its members is, quite frankly, going to perpetuate the problem that we're trying to solve with this study.

When we say urban, rural, and northern, we are explicitly saying non-ITK, non-Métis Nation, and non-AFN-led housing programs. Those have been studied, and properly studied in the Senate. We're talking about a fourth direction—a fourth stream clearly identified in the Canadian Housing and Renewal Association's study on this and clearly enunciated through a group of housing providers in the homeless sector at a recent meeting in Ottawa.

That's the group we need to study. Those are the housing providers. Those are the people with lived experience. Those are the people with expertise who we need to hear from, so we can design a new fourth program to serve a population that is not being currently served by any government program deliberately, beyond a $225 million fund over the next three years, which we put in the last budget.

We need a much bigger program. We need to understand how it works in those three spaces. We need to understand what the scope of this problem is and what the principle should be around serving this population. We need to hear from urban, rural and northern housing providers about the difficulties they're having accessing established programs and why they don't serve us well.

Listening to the AFN, quite frankly, would be like talking to somebody from Prince Edward Island about a challenge they're having in B.C. with a local municipal issue. It's outside its jurisdiction, its scope or its experience. We need to focus in on those housing providers. They are ample across the country. There are good names we can all provide together.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Mr. Albas.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I certainly appreciate MP Vaughan's intervention here and for citing his particular desire to make sure that there is a special focus within this study. I will say, though, that there are more views on this than simply that.

While I appreciate his raising it for those who feel that a fourth stream is important, I also will say that there are some areas that may not neatly fit within the parameters he's set out.

For example, CMHC does fund different parts and touches upon different programs on reserve that don't often get studied by any group in Parliament. I would also simply suggest that for us not to be talking about urban indigenous housing on reserve.... Because there are many different permutations in British Columbia, I think there are special considerations that may not be captured under an individual housing program.

I have Westbank First Nation in my riding. In B.C., there are many other unique cases where there is a mix of different housing and housing policy. With full respect, I would hope that the witnesses MP Vaughan brings are able to bring out those aspects that he thinks are lacking in our current policy. I also want to reiterate this for people who I serve directly or who are in from British Columbia who are in urban indigenous reserves, which I think is important.

I just want to make sure that we are not scoping out because if we bring witnesses and suddenly analysts start saying that we can't count any of that testimony, as meaningful as it is.... Especially if we are planning on flying people out, to disregard their testimony on either CMHC or some of the existing programs or somehow how some rules don't align....

I will give you a good example, Mr. Chair. Sometimes a first nation will be given other lands that are not part of the reserve, yet they will have housing on the reserve. I think that we need to understand how those situations and different regulations line up when you have those cases.

I see some nodding here. I do appreciate that he is receptive to that. I just don't want to have it where the analysts says that it's great testimony, but we can't use a word of it. That would disempower my constituents.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Ms. Gazan, and then Mr. Vaughan.

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

I agree with many of Adam Vaughan's comments. I think we have to be careful not to make the study too broad.

I also appreciate the comments about urban reserves. That's certainly a reality in Winnipeg and they're certainly looking at developing housing in urban areas. Some of the communities, including Peguis, have talked about developing housing. But I think we still need to be careful to clarify that. If we're talking about urban indigenous housing, maybe one specific stream in the study could be urban indigenous housing, including housing on urban reserves, but I think if we're just going to open it up to reserves, it would become an insurmountable study.

Certainly there are programs on reserve that are not available off reserve, and, although hugely underfunded, there already is a funding allocation for housing on reserve. I think Adam makes some really valid points, keeping in mind that I do want to acknowledge the gross lack of funding on reserve. I just think that because we are looking at a limited number of meetings, if we make it too broad we'll end up studying nothing. I think that could be a potential compromise. I don't know how people feel about that.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Okay.

Mr. Vaughan.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON

I agree with both speakers. There are grey areas, especially in B.C., where you have modern treaties that don't necessarily capture a land mass and are configured differently from some of the treaties as you move east. In those situations I look forward to hearing from the areas that straddle policy, and how they get disqualified or included in different programs. That is absolutely fundamental to our understanding.

My very particular point was that the national indigenous organizations have a much different constituency than those not represented by the AFN. We need to hear from people who are not represented by AFN because AFN has a separate negotiation and funding stream established with the government. There is no national organization that speaks for these three areas of programming. It is those housing providers that are asking for this program to be established and we're responding to that with the study. It's why the City of London has asked for it. It's certainly why the Lu'ma Native Housing Society in Vancouver has asked for this study, amongst others, and it's why even the Inuit here in Ottawa have said they need a separate program. Of course, there are places that straddle this, and I look forward to your expertise in bringing those voices forward from your constituency.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Okay.

Mr. Albas.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Again, I do respect that if we don't have some sense of priority or scope, then everything is...and we can go into 100 different directions. But, again, I just want to reiterate that we will certainly be mindful of witnesses. I don't want to see testimony excluded later just because it didn't neatly fit into someone's box. Therefore, there are going to be some grey zones that we will all be respectful of, and those people can still come and have their say. If it doesn't pertain to the usefulness of the study, well, then, at least someone felt they were heard and listened to and it's a permanent record in the committee evidence. I'm just glad to make sure that we're not necessarily cutting out people who may not have a voice otherwise.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Ms. Chabot, the floor is yours.

3:40 p.m.

Bloc

Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

I quite agree with the objective of restricting the scope of the testimony so that it can be useful for our study, although I would not be able to say at the moment which witnesses we should include or exclude. But we also have to ensure that the witnesses are somewhat representative of an indigenous group living in the three regions we want to study: urban, northern and rural.

I did not understand why we would exclude the First Nations. It is true that our motion was not very precise. So it is up to us to define its limits. I do not feel that we have to expand the list of witnesses from whom we will be hearing. It will be better if the testimony is very focused and relevant. However, we can call for briefs and anyone can submit one. Not all groups will come to testify, but some may be able to submit a brief.

I agree with restricting the list of witnesses, but we will make our final choice only on March 20. At our end, based on what we know about the different band councils, we will see which group in Quebec territory would be most appropriate for the present study. The housing problems they are experiencing are universal, but the funding programs differ.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Ms. Young.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Kate Young Liberal London West, ON

I agree with MP Gazan that we do want to be focused in this study, because I'm not sure of how many meetings we will have. I was just adding them up and it looks like there may be seven, maybe eight meetings, or maybe six, so we need to be focused. Of course, I have had my concerns about the homeless indigenous population in the city of London. I have since talked to the mayor of Brantford who has the Six Nations of the Grand River reserve in that community.

I think there is more than enough to study on the off-reserve housing, knowing full well that some urban communities have reserves incorporated into them and that it will be a part of our discussion.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Mr. Turnbull.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON

I appreciate all of the comments and the discussion. I think this is really healthy for us to frame this kind of a study, which is clearly important to everybody here.

I think my colleague Mr. Vaughan makes really good points about targeting this study on a specific gap. However, I also appreciate the other comments to have some flexibility.

I wonder if reviewing the stakeholder list and the way the study is structured might be helpful. I think that's what we're talking about here—what witnesses can be called under what themes and topics. I appreciate the work done by the analyst who is here with us. I can see the general structure that was proposed originally, and I know we're not tied to that. We're basically talking about reframing this, which I think is good and I'm fully in support of it.

It looks to me as if there may be additional groups that we could consider having on the list. Individuals with lived experience have always been extremely important in the national housing work, and being guided by those individuals and their lived experience is certainly helpful.

The other one I would suggest could be on the list would be other service providers who have a view on housing insecurity in indigenous communities. I think from a systems perspective, they'll actually lend a slightly different perspective from housing providers or individuals with lived experience. I think they're part of the system that could be brought together around a comprehensive solution.

What I'm saying is that, if we review the bulleted list in the original document.... I think we were saying first nations housing on reserve might be excluded from the list, or maybe included in certain cases where we deem appropriate.

Mr. Albas, I'm sorry if I misspoke, but I was trying to be appeasing to your comments as well, but maybe I didn't put that well.

Anyway, I think if we revise that list, it might be helpful to review the overall structure of the study and how we pace out and theme the different meetings that we're going to have.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Mr. Albas

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Thank you.

I'm certainly mindful that everyone seems to be considering there are going to be some situations where we have to fit people in.

I have two quick points. Number one is that trying to build themes on specific days can be a bit of a thankless task, because not everyone is available and can come in to speak to a specific theme. So, I would just ask that if someone comes in who is on a different note from the majority of witnesses, we just accept that that is going to be part of the broader report.

The second thing is that CMHC is under the purview of this committee and, as I've said, there are some questions on some of its programs in regard to housing that have an indigenous angle that often isn't heard.

And, lived experience—I agree 100%, Mr. Turnbull, that it may be helpful for us to hear, because people don't always have voice, especially when there are multiple.... Someone told me one time very early on that joint accountability is no accountability. So, if multiple groups share responsibility, it seems that no one catches the ball when something goes wrong. I just think it would be helpful for us to make sure that there is some accountability, and it starts with our committee.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Ms. Young.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Kate Young Liberal London West, ON

I have just one quick question about the Senate indigenous study. Could we be given information on how to access that? I'd like to read it over prior to our meetings.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

That shouldn't be a problem. It will be distributed to all the members.

I'd like to come back to the report of the subcommittee. It seems as though we delved right into item number one of the subcommittee report.

I'm in your hands as to how to proceed here. Is there any other discussion on the subcommittee report? I would entertain a motion to pass it en bloc unless there's a will to go through it and discuss each item there.

Mr. Vaughan.