Human Resources Committee on Jan. 26th, 2021

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Okay.

[Tina Stevens]

I can hear you now.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Perfect.

What I was saying is that I appreciated your contributions around co-op housing. I'm a big fan of co-ops in general, I said, but certainly of co-op housing.

I want to focus specifically on this question around persons living with a disability. We know that indigenous people experience higher rates of disability than the rest of the Canadian population. I wanted you to speak about the importance of ensuring that the rights of indigenous people living with disabilities are upheld in housing and otherwise.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Reply briefly, if possible, Ms. Stevens.

Go ahead.

[Tina Stevens]

Thank you for that question.

As with many other rights of peoples and Canadians all across Canada as well as of indigenous populations, in order to have the dignity and respect of being able to live in their housing unit, to flourish and be able to connect with their communities as well as to participate in a good way in regard to the community that surrounds them, addressing disabilities is a high priority to make sure that they are able to function and continue to be active in the world and their society and their communities.

In terms of for indigenous communities, under the Co-operative Housing Federation of Canada, we specifically look at those assistive devices and equipment as high priorities for making sure that they can continue to live their lives as close to normal as possible, as well as to sit with their families, to reconnect with their communities and to function normally on a daily basis as well as possible.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you very much, Ms. Stevens.

Thank you, Ms. Gazan.

Colleagues, we're about five minutes from the appointed hour and we have a bit of committee business to deal with. I regret having to cut the questions so short, but if we're going to stay on time, that's what we need to do. My apologies to Mr. Kent, Mr. Turnbull and the others who were in the queue. We did have some technical difficulties and your chair is a bit rusty in terms of keeping people on schedule, so I bear some of the responsibility for this.

To our witnesses, thank you so much. As you can tell, there's a great deal of interest and probably appetite for further questions and conversation, and we're grateful to you for being with us.

Ms. Jibb, you've done an admirable job in carrying the load of two.

Once again, thanks for what you do. Thank you for being with us. Your testimony will be of great assistance to us as we wrap up this study. I wish you a good evening.

Colleagues, please stand by. There are a couple of things in terms of the upcoming meetings. I don't think they're going to take very long.

For Thursday, we will have another full panel of witnesses in connection with the study we're doing now, but you will recall that one of the things we did at the outset of this study was to invite the Parliamentary Budget Officer. We accepted or moved certain terms of reference for the Parliamentary Budget Officer. Regarding the timeline we set for the PBO to submit a report, the PBO has asked for an extension. The extension they've asked for is until February 11. They will be able to come before the committee on February 16, which is the first meeting after the break week. They're going to provide the committee with an embargoed version of their report on February 10, and they want to have permission to hold a briefing on February 11 with the departments that provided data for the report.

I think what I require off the hop is a motion from someone to extend the time for receipt of the report from the Parliamentary Budget Officer to February 10, and that the PBO appear on February 16. Would someone please bring forward that motion? Then we'll open the floor for discussion.

Thank you, Mr. Vaughan.

Is there any discussion?

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

I'm sorry. I just wanted to discuss that.

I'm a little concerned. The PBO offered to do this report for us, and now they're slowing down our report. One of the things the PBO says they calculate quite often is the speed at which we get funding out the door, yet they're the cause of the slowdown now as we try to get this report finished.

Therefore, I'm just a little concerned that the PBO offered and talked us into receiving a report and is now talking us into a delay of the report. I just wonder what that does to the rest of the studies that are backed up behind us, as well as how we get things such as the rapid housing initiative update that Member Vis asked for. It just seems a bit odd that the PBO can't make a report on time or on schedule, even though it was their idea.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

It's a fair comment.

Just with respect to the rapid housing initiative, as long as we can—

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Mr. Chair, before you continue, I can see on the screen that some witnesses are still with us.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Yes. We are not in camera.

Ms. Jibb and Ms. Stevens, I again want to thank you for being with us. You are welcome to stay, but you're free to leave. I don't anticipate there will be any further questions for you. Thank you so much.

Thank you, Ms. Chabot.

[Tina Stevens]

Mr. Chair, may I speak, please, just for one second?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Go ahead.

[Tina Stevens]

I just want to make sure. Because of the fact that there was a decrease in the allotment of time for the last two panellists, is it possible, then, to respond to the questions in a more detailed fashion, to be able to follow up and send that to your committee?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Yes, 100%, and we would very much appreciate receiving any additional information you wish to provide.

[Tina Stevens]

Okay.

Again, thank you very much for my time here today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you very much, and thanks for your interest in providing us with more information. It's greatly appreciated.

All right, Mr. Vaughan, your comments are well taken with respect to how this might impact the update on the rapid housing. We have two meetings next week, one of which could be dedicated to the rapid housing update if we have a witness. The fact that the PBO is coming on the 16th shouldn't impact that at all. It's the availability of the witnesses that is the issue on the rapid housing update.

Did I see somebody else with a hand up?

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

Just to finish my point, it delays the drafting instructions, which means it delays the report coming back. We have a budget coming up, and the goal since last year has always been to get this report into the hands of the minister and to get it in the hands of the parliamentarians so that we can assess whether or not the budget meets the aspirations of the indigenous housing providers across the country.

I'm a little concerned that the PBO is slowing us down as we try to achieve on this file. That's the only concern I'm raising. I'm wondering if it's possible for them to submit their report as opposed to our having.... I'm just trying to figure out the timetabling on this.

Maybe what you can do is sort of back-time us from when you think we're going to have drafting instructions issued to the staff, and then figure out how we fill in between that and the PBO appearance. I know that the RHI is one issue, but there may be other issues.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Okay. My anticipation is that if we have the PBO on the 16th, as they suggest, the back half of that meeting would be drafting instructions. I don't think it's right to prepare the drafting instructions until we've heard from the last witness. If the PBO can come on the 16th, they would be the last witness.

I recognize Mr. Kent, please.

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

I take your counsel, Chair, if that is the case. I share to a certain extent Mr. Vaughan's frustration that the PBO, on making the offer, is late in providing the report. I wonder if it's possible to request that the PBO submit at least a summary sooner than the delay that has been requested for the full report.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Yes, I don't think there would be any harm in asking for that. They indicate that it's going to be ready on the 10th, so you would think that a summary would be possible before that. I think that's reasonable.

Are there any further interventions?

Even though Mr. Vaughan spoke to the motion, I'm not sure that there has been a motion moved.

I'm sorry. Go ahead.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

Let me just block out the next three weeks and where this all fits in, so that we can sort of understand how it's being composed and what we have left to do on this file, what we have to do on rapid housing and then what other gaps there are, to see if we can either start another study or fill those gaps more productively.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Okay. Let me map out the thinking on the timeline.

The next meeting will be another panel on this study. Then we have one more week before a break week. One of those meetings will be dedicated to an update on rapid housing, subject to the availability of witnesses. I do believe that it would be appropriate for the subcommittee to meet to plan what studies we will be commencing on February 18, after hearing from the PBO, given that we do have a long list of motions for study. The subcommittee would meet at one of those meetings, and that report would need to be ratified by the full committee, probably at the second of those meetings next week.

We're talking February 2 for the subcommittee. February 4, we go in camera to adopt the subcommittee report and any other committee business. Then we have a break week. February 16 is the PBO and the drafting instructions, and February 18 will be the commencement of the next study. All of that is on the understanding that if witnesses become available on the second or the fourth, for the path of those meetings, half of one of those meetings would be dedicated to the rapid housing initiative.

That's the rough plan, subject to discussion and adoption by the subcommittee and the full committee.

I recognize Mr. Turnbull, please.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I wanted to make a plea to the committee to consider one more witness, whose name I put forward quite a while ago. I understand it was lost, maybe potentially in the changeover between our clerks.

His name is Jesse Thistle. Ms. Jibb mentioned him in her testimony. He's a Métis gentleman who spent the better part of a decade homeless across different cities in Canada. He wrote the bestselling book called From the Ashes. He is now a lead scholar in history at York University, who has written about intergenerational trauma. He has lived experience and has rewritten the definition of indigenous homelessness. He's written a bestselling book and has healed himself over many years to come back from chronic homelessness and to overcome much of his intergenerational trauma.

I think he would be a great witness. I've put his name forward and I'm hoping we can find a way to include him in this study.

Mr. Vaughan and I had a little discussion. We wondered if this solution would be amenable to the committee. I think half the meeting in the future is dedicated to the rapid housing initiative. Could we potentially have another panel of witnesses for a part of that meeting, where we could have Jesse Thistle appear? I think it would really benefit the study.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Turnbull.

I'm going to suggest that this be moved to the subcommittee for a fulsome discussion to deal with these things, and then come back to us.

I'd like to get back to having somebody move a motion as to whether we're going to accept the PBO's request.

I see Ms. Gazan and Mr. Vaughan.

Ms. Gazan, you have the floor.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I agree with Mr. Vaughan. I think this study is timely.

After spending such a great time in the study, it really concerns me that it's being stalled. I think the information, particularly right now in a pandemic.... I need to get this out in my riding so we can move forward in a way that's going to save lives. I share the very urgent concern that we don't allow this study to be stalled.

I'll leave it at that. It is a very deep concern for me.