Cliff C. Groen Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Benefits and Integrated Services Branch, Service Canada, Department of Employment and Social Development

Corinne Pohlmann Senior Vice-President, National Affairs and Partnerships, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Leah Nord Senior Director, Workforce Strategies and Inclusive Growth, Canadian Chamber of Commerce

5:30 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, National Affairs and Partnerships, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Corinne Pohlmann

I would say it has been vastly improving over the course of the pandemic. At the very beginning, some of the first ideas that came out were nowhere near sufficient. Thankfully, after lots of feedback and advocacy work—not just from us but from many others as well—the government pivoted and started putting out programs that were quite a bit more generous.

I would say that the wage subsidy program and the Canada emergency business account program have both been very important to many small business owners and have helped many of them get through the really difficult times.

Could improvements be made? They could, absolutely, especially to the rent subsidy program, for example. There are definitely things we think could be tweaked to make them even more accessible and easier to access. They continue to be important lifelines.

One area that I certainly think still really needs to be addressed is how to help small businesses deal with the debt they're accumulating, because for many of them it's going to take years to get out from under that debt. That's one area we think still needs some work.

5:30 p.m.

NDP

Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

I usually don't pump the partisan NDP, but I was really proud that our party negotiated the wage benefit from 10% to 75%.

One of the other concerns that have been raised, certainly about support for business, is that many people who have applied are still waiting for their benefit. There's a huge lag time for receiving the benefit. Is this something you've heard about, long wait times for receiving benefits?

5:35 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, National Affairs and Partnerships, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Corinne Pohlmann

It really depends on the benefit. That is very true for the regional relief and recovery fund. That one, for whatever reason, has been taking months to actually get feedback.

Others are much quicker. We have found that it really depends on the program. CRA's actually been pretty good once they have gotten the programs up and running. There has usually been a bit of messy time at the beginning when they have started the programs, but once they have gotten things moving, the programs have worked relatively well.

It's less so with some of the others, but there are definitely some programs for which it can take quite a while to get feedback.

5:35 p.m.

NDP

Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

I ask that because I talk to many small business owners in my riding who are under a lot of strain because they are not receiving the benefits they qualify for. I think, especially during a pandemic, that just causes unnecessary emotional and psychological stress for an already stressed small business industry.

We spoke about the rollout of programs. What improvements would you make to ease the pressure on small businesses?

5:35 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, National Affairs and Partnerships, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Corinne Pohlmann

As I said earlier, the biggest one would be finding ways to have more forgiveness of some of the debt; for example, having a portion of CEBA, the Canada emergency business account, be refundable or expanding it even further, because we're still in this and it's not getting any better. The money they got last year and maybe in December has already run out again, so I would say perhaps that should be expanded and more of it should be forgivable, or a forgivable portion should be added to the highly affected sectors credit availability program. It's only a debt program now, and again, with all the debt they've had, many business owners have said they just can't use it because they can't take on more debt. Those would definitely be some improvements.

Tweaks could be made to the rent subsidy program that would make it more accessible. Certainly, I would say, for new businesses, if they opened their doors only after March 1 of last year, they're out of luck. There's been nothing available for them at all. Some of those businesses are really at the end of their rope and really need some help now.

5:35 p.m.

NDP

Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

I agree, 100%. I know that with concerns around debt accumulation during the pandemic and people wanting to keep their businesses open, this is going to gut many more businesses in our ridings.

Some businesses have been really impacted, like, for example, businesses that are completely shut down or those with only 25% capacity. They've been trying to manage like this for months and months, still paying 100% property taxes and really feeling gutted.

What have you heard about that?

5:35 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, National Affairs and Partnerships, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Corinne Pohlmann

We probably get 100 calls a day on that. It's incredibly stressful right now because, as you said, property taxes still have to get paid. Many of them have to pay their GST and they need that for their cash flow at the same time. There are a lot of businesses, as I said, still struggling, and the bills will continue to come in. They have to pay their rent. They have to pay their taxes and certainly pay their mortgage if they have one. Definitely it's a trying time when your business has being forced to work at a much reduced capacity.

5:35 p.m.

NDP

Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Yes. I'd say divest from big corporations and let's invest in small business, but that's my bias. Thanks.

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Thank you, Ms. Gazan. That concludes the time we have.

Ms. Pohlmann, I want to thank you for your patience, first and foremost. Although it appears that you've been shortchanged in terms of your time before the committee, we got you all to ourselves, so you probably faced twice as many questions in the last half hour as you would have if you had to share the stage. We certainly appreciate the advice that the CFIB gives to successive governments, and it has been doing so for 50 years.

I would be remiss if, before we adjourn, I didn't point out to you some of the excellent work that has been done in my province of Prince Edward Island by Erin McGrath-Gaudet over the years. She has been an extremely articulate advocate for small business, to the point where the last time the government changed she was hired as the deputy minister of economic growth. The credibility that she has with the business community is serving her and the new government here in Prince Edward Island very well. If that's an indicator of the calibre of talent you have, you have another 50 years in you.

6 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, National Affairs and Partnerships, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Corinne Pohlmann

Thank you.

6 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Thank you so much for being with us, and thanks for what you do.

Thank you, colleagues, for hanging in there. Do we have consent to adjourn the meeting?

I believe I read consensus.

Thanks, everyone. We'll see you next week. Have a good weekend.

The meeting is adjourned.