Human Resources Committee on April 15th, 2021

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

That's a good question.

Really early in the pandemic, we heard concerns from Canadians who work in seasonal employment that their EI was soon going to be running out. Because of COVID, they didn't have any employment to look to, so we ensured that the eligibility criteria for CERB included those who recently exhausted EI regular or fishing benefits. We also worked to ensure that these workers weren't left behind without support once the transition from CERB happened, by either being able to access EI because they got the hours credit or being able to access the Canada recovery benefit.

I'm thinking also of what we did for self-employed fishers whose income may have been impacted by COVID-19. We extended the eligibility criteria so they could use insurable income from the same season in either 2018 or 2019, whatever was beneficial to them.

We extended the seasonal pilot project, of course, which was due to expire in May 2020. We are looking to see how we can make it better, make it permanent and make it more available to more seasonal workers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Long.

Ms. Chabot, you have two and a half minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Long, I'm going to follow up on what you said.

Madam Minister, if there's one thing to reform in the EI program, it is the black hole that affects seasonal workers.

The seasonal industry is an important industry in our regions and in some provinces. There is fishing, forestry and tourism. We know that there is nothing between jobs.

You've met with large organizations. There is a consensus that reform must be used to end the EI black hole.

Madam Minister, what would your solution be for seasonal workers?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

That's a leap from the last question.

We know how important the seasonal worker pilot is and what a difference the five weeks make to bridge the gap between when benefits end and when their season resumes.

To me, this is just one more example of how many different scenarios need to be considered as we make any changes in EI, because we really want to make sure we're there for seasonal workers.

I hear your concern.

It's very important to me that any future EI system addresses that trou noir and makes sure that seasonal workers, where appropriate—and I think that's a really important conversation we need to have—get extended benefits, and what that looks like.

I want to hear from experts and from all of you on this committee on what possible changes you would recommend.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you.

There's another issue. You know what it is, you talked about it in your remarks. There are gaps and flaws in our program. About 60% of workers don't have access to it.

Now, I'm going to talk specifically about women and youth, who don't have access because of their work. Women and young people are the ones in the most non-standard jobs. When a person works only two days a week, it takes them much longer to qualify for EI benefits than a male colleague who works full time for 40 hours a week. The person will have paid exactly the same premium as their colleague. So there's a kind of discrimination and, in our opinion, that must be corrected in the reform.

What do you think about it?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Madam Minister, I'd ask you to be brief, if possible.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

I am tout à fait d'accord.

I am very aware that too many workers don't have access to EI. Many part-time workers, as you said, pay into it all their lives but never make the required number of hours to actually access this program they have paid into. It's the exact kind of challenge that we need to address and conquer as we look at adequacy and accessibility of benefits in this modernization conversation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Minister, and Madame Chabot.

We'll have Ms. Gazan, please, for two and a half minutes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you again, Minister.

I have a question regarding EI accounts. The EI account is not [Technical difficulty—Editor] from being diverted into the general revenue for other uses.

The NDP supplementary report on the EI review noted that $57 million was diverted from the EI account. This can be seen as—and I believe is—extremely unfair to workers and employers who make contributions.

Can you give us an update about how much of the EI account has been diverted in the last fiscal year?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

I don't have that information in front of me.

Graham, would you or Cliff have it?

[Graham Flack]

We don't divert funds from the EI account. By law, the EI account has to be spent on the elements that Parliament set out, where it's required, for the EI account. This is independently verified by the Auditor General.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Would your government commit to introducing legislation to protect the EI account from unrelated diversion of funds?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

I certainly would take that into consideration. Following up on what Graham said, that was what I was thinking, but I was uncertain. I will repeat, then, that the EI account funds are not diverted to non-EI purposes. I will, however, definitely add this to the list of things that perhaps we can do to enhance the EI system.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Following the promise of the EI review in the 2020 throne speech, the EI commissioner spoke publicly about the need for a non-partisan review of EI. This rarely happens. The Liberals, though, failed to deliver on a review of EI in your first mandate, when you had a majority.

Your concern was that a minority government poses a risk of a snap election that could disrupt or stop any parliamentary review of EI. This is a valid concern, because workers cannot wait indefinitely for government to take action. For this reason, the EI commissioners proposed that the government quickly launch an independent review guaranteeing a thorough review of EI and a consultation with a broad set of stakeholders. Why hasn't your government launched an independent review of EI?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

As we've been out working with stakeholders—particularly the ones I mentioned, whom I won't list again—we have decided on the most prudent path and the most timely way to address some of the more low-hanging fruit among the changes that have been suggested over time and that there's consensus that we need to achieve within this upcoming September time frame that we're considering. That would be to do a phased approach whereby we take the time we need to consult and talk to experts and stakeholders on the more complex matters—

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I don't have a lot of time. Just very quickly, will you commit to—?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

You're past time.

Go ahead and finish your answer, if you wish, though, Minister.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

II was going to say what I've already said. That's fine.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Next we have Mr. Tucker, please, for five minutes.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Actually, it will be me, Mr. Redekopp.

Minister, I want to raise the issue of the systemic failure of your department to deliver EI benefits to women, under your leadership. The issue affects women who go into premature labour.

Your department puts mothers on the child caregiver benefit while the baby is still in the neonatal ICU. Once the baby is home, the mother is supposed to be transferred to maternity benefits.

The problem is that every maternity benefit payment must be done manually for the duration of the maternity. If the Service Canada agent doesn't manually process the paperwork in time, the payments are late.

My staff contacted your officials about the specific case of Darlene, in my riding of Saskatoon West. Darlene had made many calls to Service Canada to change her EI to maternity leave after she gave birth three months prematurely.

She applied in October 2020, days after her baby was finally home from the hospital. Service Canada promptly cut her off and told her it would take three months for the maternity benefits to kick in. My office had to intervene multiple times with your officials. She is getting money now, but even a month ago she called about having another problem.

Minister, is this systemic failure, denying women maternity benefits, official Liberal government policy or simply lack of ministerial leadership by you to help women?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

It's neither. We are absolutely committed to making sure every worker has access to every single dollar they're entitled to under their benefits. We know the disproportionate impact this pandemic has had on women.

I sympathize incredibly with Darlene's circumstances. Please don't hesitate in the future to email me directly to ensure that we can deal with this. That's an unacceptable delay. Service Canada has been extremely taxed, but that's not an excuse.

Part of our benefits modernization initiative and the modernization of the program is to deal with exactly those kinds of systemic challenges, which are built into these antiquated systems. They are not a reflection of policy but a reflection of clunky delivery and implementation.

It is 100% the policy of this government that we will support women workers.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Is this specific problem related to the premature births, then, being addressed? Is it being fixed?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

I'll get Cliff to answer that because that's a systems question.

[Cliff C. Groen, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Benefits and Integrated Services Branch, Service Canada, Department of Employment and Social Development]

Thank you very much.

Again, I don't have the details about this specific case, but there are multiple EI benefit types. There's the EI caregiver benefit, as you indicated. There's the EI maternity benefit. When someone gives birth, they are eligible for maternity benefits. They can claim maternity benefits any time after the intended birth.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Yes, that's fine. I think we understand. We need to have that fixed and I look forward to the changes.

Mr. Chair, I'll give the rest of my time to Ms. Dancho.