Human Resources Committee on May 11th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Welcome to meeting number 33 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of January 25, 2021. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. The webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.

Today, we are going to receive a briefing from the 2014 Centennial Flame Research Award recipient. The committee grants the Centennial Flame Research Award to a Canadian with a disability to enable them to conduct research and prepare a report on the contributions of one or more persons with disabilities to the public life of Canada or the activities of Parliament. This award is presented in accordance with the Centennial Flame Research Award Act.

I'm very pleased to welcome Selma Kouidri, the 2014 award recipient, to begin our discussion with five minutes of opening remarks followed by a round of questions.

For your benefit, Ms. Kouidri, I would like to make a few additional comments. I expect that you are probably already aware of these things. First, interpretation at the video conference is available. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of “floor”, “English” or “French”. When you're speaking, please speak slowly and clearly, and when you're not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

With that, welcome to the committee. It's a pleasure to have you with us. You have the floor for five minutes.

[Selma Kouidri, As an Individual]

Thank you very much.

Good afternoon, everyone.

Thank you, honourable members of the committee for welcoming me today.

I'm going to give my presentation in French because that's my first language. Well, my first language is Arabic, but the second language I know best is French. I may switch from French to English from time to time. I apologize in advance to the interpreters in case I happen to stray from the notes I submitted in anticipation of this presentation.

Thanks again to the honourable committee members who made it possible for me to be here today to present the outcome of my work under the Centennial Flame Research Award I received in 2014. I was honoured to receive this award and this recognition from the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities on the basis of my personal work, and the work I wanted to accomplish on behalf of Ms. Maria Barile. The award enabled me to describe the rich intellectual and professional life of Maria Barile, a disabled immigrant whose profile resembles mine to some extent. I too am a disabled immigrant woman who has been in Canada since 1996.

I would like to briefly discuss the report that was sent to you about the research I completed. At the very outset, I really wanted to describe the unconventional career of Ms. Barile, who left us in July 2013. Her departure was premature because we didn't have enough time to get to know her, the scope of her work and her contribution to Canadian, and especially Quebec, society, not to mention what she gave to the disabled women I represent.

I met Maria Barile in 2008, when I began working at Action des femmes handicapées de Montréal, an organization that she co-founded after having created the DisAbled Women's Network Canada. She was really involved in every movement since the 1970s, and I would even go so far as to say since her arrival in Canada in 1964. This Italian girl, with her mother and her two brothers, joined her father who was already in Canada. She was the eldest child, and although only 11 years old when she came to Quebec, very quickly realized how much personal effort would be required of her not to mention the exertion needed to integrate into her host society, because she was already hearing impaired when she arrived. Another disability was discovered later.

Maria Barile displayed a great deal of perseverance throughout her life from the age of 11. She worked very hard on her studies, and was self-taught. You may be aware that persons with disabilities could not be educated after the age of 18, and they mainly attended special education schools in the 1980s. Fortunately, this is no longer the case today. People who want to can go a long way with their education.

When she was 18, Maria Barile was told that she could no longer pursue her education, given the system at the time. She didn't even have a high school diploma. She only had access to French and English language learning, and in her Italian mother tongue.

She worked very hard to complete her high school education, and her CEGEP studies, which she did by correspondence. This shows just how determined and persevering she was. My meeting with her really demonstrated that there are opportunities in Quebec, Canada and even elsewhere for a person with disabilities, and even a disabled woman. She had no limits. She told herself that if people really wanted to succeed, there were opportunities and you had to seize them.

It's also important to know that she worked very hard to overcome barriers and shatter glass ceilings. Allow me to repeat that glass ceilings are encountered in more than one specific setting. As disabled women, we encounter glass ceilings everywhere along the way when we want to fulfil ourselves as individuals.

I was able to think about all these things thanks to this research, which also showed me not only Maria Barile's intellectual and professional side, but also her involvement as a person, as a leader, as a role model for disabled immigrant women or any disabled women, and in particular, as a role model for girls and young women in years to come.

For me, she was a woman who cleared a path for all persons with disabilities. In the disability movement of the 1970s and 1980s, she was one of the first to condemn discrimination and violence against persons with disabilities, and in particular violence against women and girls. Right up to her premature passing, she spoke out about spousal violence and was emphatic that we should no longer remain in denial about persons with disabilities, particularly for women caught up in spousal and family violence.

At the time, her work was to remind us that all women are subjected to violence. It's not just any particular woman, but all women. It's essential to work and take action collectively. It's a social problem, and therefore requires collective solutions. It's up to us as a society to provide these women with resources and support.

The report you've received demonstrates the extent of her involvement in society and everything she was able to accomplish. This woman, whom I met in 2008, did so much. I believe she was an agent of change; I too joined the feminist movement with an intersectional approach. Thanks to Maria Barile, I fulfilled myself as an individual, as a mother, and as a citizen in my host society, in Quebec and Canada. Thanks to Maria Barile's work, I could see that there were no longer any limits. You probably know that for an immigrant coming here, integrating into the host society involves challenges. When someone has an incapacity or disability, the challenges get more difficult.

People like Maria Barile, who have already cleared a path to some degree, have thus given us this opportunity to find our place and to tell ourselves: "I'm not placing any limits on myself. Just because I have a disability doesn't mean I have to be set apart. I have something to contribute to this host society as a citizen. I can make changes and I can help other people and other women with disabilities."

I sought out information, most of which came from family members, colleagues and people who knew her. Maria Barile worked. She went to university and was among the first to do postgraduate work. She was a professional, a social worker, who unfortunately was never able to work in her field because at the time, there were barriers, and disability-based discrimination.

She used to joke that she did hours and hours of social work, but in her kitchen. All kinds of women would call up Maria and go to her place for support. The watchwords of Action des femmes handicapées de Montréal, an organization that she founded, were openness and inclusion. Women of all kinds from the diversity showed up there, whatever their disability, ethnocultural origin, or sexual orientation might be. They all had access to a safe space. Maria Barile was among the first to establish safe spaces where women could define and fulfil themselves.

I wanted to share all this work with others. I wanted people to know that the history of persons with disabilities was written by many people, but particularly by some of the women who were part of the movement. People tend to forget the contribution made by this social work, and social action, by those women. I also had first-hand accounts through the generosity of family members who opened their doors and shared her work with me.

Maria published numerous scholarly articles. She did considerable research into the needs of persons with disabilities and their adaptation to them. She was among the first to advocate universal accessibility. Today, we're happy about the fact that an accessibility act is in force across Canada. We are already seeing some results.

It's thanks to pioneers like Maria Barile that, in Montreal for example, public transportation and the subway are becoming increasingly adapted to the needs of persons with disabilities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Excuse me, Ms. Kouidri.

[Selma Kouidri]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

The parliamentarians are eager to ask you some questions. I would therefore ask you to finish your opening address. You will have the opportunity to add a few more details as you answer their questions.

[Selma Kouidri]

I'm finished.

The outcome of all the research that was done is described in the report, which also includes hyperlinks and filmed interviews. As Ms. Barile worked in French, English and Italian, the information could be in any of these three languages.

I am prepared to answer your questions and might be able to add a few details afterwards.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you very much, Ms. Kouidri.

We'll start the first round of questions with the Conservatives.

Ms. Dancho, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you.

And thank you, Ms. Kouidri, for your address.

My first question is the following. I always find it interesting to hear about female entrepreneurship. Could you tell us more about the consulting firm founded by Ms. Barile, called Éco-Accès?

[Selma Kouidri]

Yes. Ms. Barile founded the Éco-Accès consulting firm to achieve her sustainable development, recycling and climate change goals.

For example, recycling was not available for all persons with disabilities. They might have a recycling bin and the tools needed, but these were not adapted to their needs. Everything pertaining to recycling was designed for people without a disability. Ms. Barile's firm therefore worked to ensure that bins were more accessible to persons with disabilities and that their design would make it easier for them to take them out.

She also produced recycled materials, such as the bags she distributed. She encouraged lots of people to use the bags produced by her company instead of plastic bags.

She also did consulting work for companies, and for the City of Montreal, to ensure that recycling services were better adapted to persons with disabilities. She was a specialist in universal accessibility and universal design.

She was among the first to really promote accessibility and to speak out more about recycling. She established discussion groups. She also made sure that women with disabilities took part in all matters pertaining to sustainable development and combating climate change.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you very much.

[Selma Kouidri]

I'd like to add that the company no longer exists. This is unfortunate, but we are continuing the work that that she began. I could tell you more about it afterwards.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you.

I've lived in Montreal for a number of years now, and I know that the recycling services there are excellent. I didn't know that Ms. Barile had contributed to that. I find it very interesting.

My second question is the following. Could you tell us about Ms. Barile's Action des femmes handicapées de Montréal organization and its sustainable heritage committee?

[Selma Kouidri]

Action des femmes handicapées de Montréal is an association that she co-founded in 1986, further to her involvement in the establishment of a Canada-wide organization called DAWN Canada. All of the women involved in the creation of DAWN returned to their respective provinces to create what they used to call, "little DAWNs", small women's associations. In the groups for persons with disabilities and in women's groups, there was nothing for disabled women. They often tell us that they were working on behalf of women's rights or disability rights, and that only afterwards would they look at the intersectionality or specificity of certain groups such as women with disabilities.

So Ms. Barile established Action des femmes handicapées de Montréal, saying, "If there's no environment for us, then we'll create it; we too have to work." That was the basic idea behind DAWN. Action des femmes handicapées de Montréal still exists, by the way, and it has been there since 1986.

She worked a lot on issues and challenges that concerned women, but also persons with disabilities, because she was deeply involved in the various groups; women's health and welfare, and sex education, among other things. She also worked hard on reproductive rights and sexual health, as well as all kinds of violence against disabled women and girls, whether institutional, spousal, family or sexual.

It's a legacy. I have benefited considerably from this legacy and am continuing her work. I think about all the work she did with Action des femmes handicapées de Montréal, and even her writings and her research to promote the distinctive identity of disabled women, and to encourage support for these women.

She was also one of the first to approach the Quebec government about our inclusion in discussions of action plans to combat violence against women.

In 1995, the first action plan in which there was much more discussion than usual about disabled women, came about because of Maria Barile's work. Women were treated as victims, but a number of other measures and approaches were developed.

Unfortunately, there is still work to be done. It's not easy for all women. I am happy today to say that this legacy, everything that she left us, is something that we as women support. I personally feel involved.

With members of her family, we established the Institut national pour l'équité, l'égalité et l'inclusion des personnes en situation de handicap, or INEEI-PSH, to continue her work, to combat violence of all kinds, to promote equity, to achieve de facto equality—her obsession—between women and men, and among all women too, with a view to achieving inclusiveness.

What she did for disabled women was incredible, particularly for Quebec and Canadian society. No one will be able to say that they have never heard of Maria Barile, or what she did.

I would also argue emphatically that this is also true for postsecondary education. She worked hard to make education accessible tor persons with disabilities, particularly girls and boys and young women and men, so that they could go farther in life.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you for your testimony.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you Ms. Kouidri.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

We'll now continue with Ms. Young, who will have the floor for six minutes.

[Kate Young, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Kouidri, for your report on this amazing woman, Maria Barile, who, as you mentioned, died in 2013. It's so unfortunate because her life was not without many struggles. You talk about this in your report.

I thought it would be good for this committee to hear about how especially difficult it was when she first came to Canada. Maybe you could talk about the terrible attack she suffered when she was quite young and how this impacted her life.

[Selma Kouidri]

As I was saying, Maria Barile faced many challenges and suffered a great deal of discrimination. I could mention a serious incident that was a catalyst for her work following her arrival in Quebec and Canada.

When she was 11 years old, she attended a special school for people who were deaf or hearing impaired, the MacKay School for the Deaf. She was already experiencing discrimination at the time because she was being told that she could not take her education any farther. That's what she would have wanted, but she was being told that she would be incapable of learning more than she already had. She experienced lots of discrimination.

She used public transportation a lot. She was disabled and also deaf, which no one knew. She tried to hide it, because she was afraid. She also experienced health problems, and occasional muscle spasms caused by dystonia. She visibly had a disability.

Her brother allowed me to read it. She tells about being attacked and explains how vulnerable it made her feel. Two people accosted her in a dark area of the subway. All she was worried about was the fact that she had some research work to submit. She never even thought about her safety or her health. Her only worry was that she didn't know how she would manage to turn in her work. She was being attacked and had lost her purse. That was her concern.

When she asked for help, no one in the subway supported or helped her immediately. When she ended up at the police station, no adaptation measures were available. She had trouble speaking because of her disability and what she was saying was often not believed. When she talked about the attack, its severity was downplayed. They thought she might have made it up, even though it had really happened. In her notebook, she wrote that she felt alone and that nobody was there to support her when she made a complaint. She had to work hard to get the police to believe her, and for them to pursue the matter. In the end, nothing was done.

She was emphatic about her claim that a victim could end up alone in circumstances like that when they weren't being believed. A powerless victim was undergoing trauma, but there was nobody there to support her. At the police station, there were no adaptive measures to provide support. Here she was, a disabled person who had just experienced trauma and she couldn't hear what was going on. She didn't understand what was happening around her and was not receiving any support from the police or the caseworkers. At one point, there were only the members of her family.

This trauma was something that haunted her throughout her life and led her to work to support all women who survive violence, whoever they may be. For her, the most important thing would have been to have had someone by her side to give her support when making the complaint, and afterwards, to combat violence.

[Kate Young, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you so much.

You say in your report that she felt “invisible”. I can really feel that from reading your words. I wonder what she would think today. If she were here today and could talk to our committee, what would she say?

Things have changed, in many cases for the better, but people with disabilities, and especially women with disabilities, still really have roadblocks. The Accessible Canada Act is moving us in the right direction.

Do you think she would say that we are moving in the right direction?

[Selma Kouidri]

I am absolutely certain that she would say there's been a great deal of improvement. She would have been happy to see what's happening.

In fact, I wrote an article about that two years ago to describe how the situation has progressed. I can tell you that not much has changed. There have been some very positive steps forward and were happy to see that consultations were carried out in connection with the bill. However, some points were not taken into consideration.

It's being worked on, though, using an open and receptive approach.

Violence against disabled women, for example, is still not a priority. Support services for victims of violence are still not included in the bill, meaning that the provincial legislation takes things farther than the federal legislation. Once we're dealing with provincial areas of jurisdiction, the bill is narrower in scope. Nevertheless, we feel that it's a tool, and that's very important to us.

Maria Barile would be pleased with all the changes that are being made, but much remains to be done.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Young.

[Kate Young, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Ms. Chabot, you have the floor now for six minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Kouidri, it's a privilege to have you here and we thank you for your efforts to tell us about a great woman who had to fight in spite of her disabilities.

It's well known that disabled women experience a dual form of societal discrimination. Your report describes the barriers she encountered, and in particular her willingness to fight to change things. Thank you for telling us about this and for having taken all this time with us to tell us about her. As you said, she left us too early in the battle she was leading.

I'd like to ask Ms. Young the same question. If Ms. Barile were here today, what would she say to us? I believe that in the association you run, you are continuing her efforts, and I would imagine that many of your workers have drawn a great deal of inspiration from her.

You also mentioned de facto equality. In terms of equal rights, there has been a great deal of progress, but for de facto equality, I think much remains to be done.

What goals has Ms. Barile left for us to address?

[Selma Kouidri]

The approach she always advocated was intersectional analysis from a feminist standpoint. She believed it was very important to understand everyone's realities and to accept everything about a person. She felt that it was up to individuals to step forward and explain their habits and needs to others. It's not up to us to decide what is best for them.

Ms. Barile did in fact work on de facto equality because at the time, she was already working with everyone else and any organizations that called upon her, whether on behalf of persons with disabilities or women's organizations. Even if she didn't feel they were the right place for her, she went to these organizations to make them aware of the realities of disabled women.

Ms. Barile asked the Fédération des femmes du Québec where the disabled women were and how the federation could do its work without including them, particularly after she began to get involved in the World March of Women, which developed out of the Bread and Roses March. She worked very hard to make sure that this march would be accessible. However, she was told that it was important to begin by working for women's rights and only then look into it. This demonstrated to her that disabled women were still on the fringes of society.

She said that she didn't share the federation's opinion, but wanted to continue to work with them because she wanted disabled women to be included in its work. She wanted to see disabled women among the others making demands. She said that it was impossible to speak on behalf of women while excluding some of them. As there was a wide range of groups, it was important to include all of them. I myself firmly believe in this approach, which Ms. Barile employed to make groups of persons with disabilities understand.

It's clear that parity was never very strong in these groups. It still isn't. However, we are working hard, just as she did, to be at all the decision-making tables and groups to speak about equality with them. Ms. Barile wanted to know what these groups thought about the equality issue and what was happening in this area. She told them that in some important issues, such as violence against women, real progress could be achieved by working together. Women alone could not get it done. She therefore forged ties with many different groups and I think that she found it exhausting, because it wasn't easy to make her case to every single group.

She was also one of the first women to condemn policy inequality. In Quebec, she worked hard on getting policies adopted that would give an equal place to persons with disabilities. She wanted to know what role women would have in preparing the reports.

Today, the reports of the Office des personnes handicapées du Québec, which are often consulted, do differentiated analyses by sex or GBA, but nothing beyond that. Of course women are not a single homogeneous group; there are diverse groups of women. It's important to know which women we are dealing with. That is what Ms. Barile accomplished and what we are pursuing.

I am one among others who are continuing her work. I also work with others who knew Ms. Barile at the time and who didn't really agree with her approach, but who agree with it now. I'm thinking among others of Dr. Patrick Fougeyrollas, an anthropologist and disability expert, who is known in particular for his development of the disability creation process model. He is currently working hard to ensure that there is equality, even in research work, on behalf of the advancement of all persons with disabilities.

I believe that Ms. Barile would be proud of what we are doing. She would also take pride in being with us and being able to speak to you. She would certainly consider it a great honour to present all of the work she did, and all of the women for whom she was a role model, who have followed her lead and are continuing her work.