Evidence of meeting #35 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was support.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Annette Gibbons  Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Employment and Social Development
Janet Goulding  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Income Security and Social Development Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Alexis Conrad  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Income Security and Social Development Branch and Policy Horizons Canada, Department of Employment and Social Development

5:20 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Employment and Social Development

Annette Gibbons

I don't have a comment on that.

I was referring to the public policy decision on the old age security pension, not other decisions.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Thank you, Ms. Chabot.

Next is Ms. Gazan.

Go ahead, please, for six minutes.

5:25 p.m.

NDP

Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for coming to committee today.

My first question relates to Manitoba and much of the western provinces. We know that urban indigenous peoples in particular, first nations communities, have been disproportionately impacted by high rates of COVID-19, and this has also been true in the case of Black communities in Canada. My question for your department is this: Has there been any data collection in relation to the social determinants of health and impacts of COVID-19 on indigenous and Black seniors during the pandemic?

5:25 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Employment and Social Development

Annette Gibbons

I will admit, Mr. Chair, that I'm not in a position to expand on that. I know that we're having some discussions with our federal and provincial colleagues on data sources and on breaking out different populations of seniors by different characteristics, and that's something that we need to improve upon. We have the federal and provincial ministers responsible for seniors meeting in June, and one of the things officials have put on the agenda for them to discuss is how we improve that.

On the specifics around those data points and the impacts of COVID, I can say generally that I think StatsCan has done quite a bit of work to be able to provide very detailed demographic information, but I don't have that at my fingertips.

5:25 p.m.

NDP

Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

I was very happy to finally see a robust StatsCan study again. However, as we know, rates of poverty within certain groups of seniors are higher, which is why this data is pretty critical going forward, and I hope to have a more robust answer the next time. I think this is quite pressing.

I know you've been asked a lot of questions about this. The government has proposed a $500 payment for August 2021 to OAS pensioners who are 75 years of age and older, and an increase in the OAS pension payable to individuals aged 75 and over by 10% as of July 2022. Again, going to back to research, we also know there are differences in life expectancy. These are not secrets.

What data was used to determine that this one-time payment of $500 and the 10% increase would be adequate?

5:25 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Employment and Social Development

Annette Gibbons

As I was saying before and as the minister spoke about earlier, there was a range of different data taken into consideration, things like costs, differences in income and differences in labour force participation. We can certainly send some of those numbers along to the committee as Madame Chabot asked for.

One of the numbers I have here—and this is intuitive for a lot of people—shows that the proportion of seniors with employment income in 2018 was substantially lower among those aged 75 and up—15.5%—compared with 34% of seniors aged 65 to 74 who had employment income, so that's one of the data points that were considered in that decision.

With regard to marital status and whether couples are sharing expenses or whether there are more likely to be people who are on their own covering their expenses, there's a difference there in terms of seniors over 75. Those are the types of things that were taken into account.

5:25 p.m.

NDP

Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

With all due respect, I know this is not your decision, but I hope 75-year-olds don't have to work in order to stay off the street. That being said, has there been any sort of exploration of data, any research done specifically with regard to women? We know that many women who are seniors do not benefit from a pension. We know that women in their senior years live in poverty at higher rates.

Is this data gender-specific, and going further, has specific research been done with BIPOC communities?

5:30 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Employment and Social Development

Annette Gibbons

That some of it is gender-specific and some of it is not is the short answer to that. I don't believe that there was detailed analysis at the BIPOC level, but I certainly am happy to go back and check that.

5:30 p.m.

NDP

Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Yes. I have some concerns about that, because this was a pretty big decision to leave out individuals 65 to 74 for an increase in an OAS benefit, knowing the high rates of poverty in which seniors live. It doesn't seem from your responses—I could be incorrect—that there was a lot of research done in making these critical decisions, when the announcement was made, in terms of who gets it.

I agree with many of my colleagues within the committee that there seems to be a two-tiered system being set up for seniors in our country.

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

Thank you, Ms. Gazan. We're out of time.

5:30 p.m.

NDP

Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, everybody.

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sean Casey

We'll have Mr. Vis, please, for five minutes.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It was almost exactly a year ago when I believe Mesdames Conrad, Goulding and Gibbons were talking about OAS at our committee.

The minister said at that meeting on May 15, 2020 that the most important thing was to get a payment as quickly as possible into the hands of those seniors who were struggling. That was the objective of the government. It's why we had the one-time payment option go to old age security recipients and guaranteed income supplement recipients, so we didn't have to make them apply.

At the time of our discussion last year, we discussed the merits of OAS recipients receiving $300 even if they were in the upper-income levels, and of GIS recipients receiving $500. It seemed that the minister agreed they'd made some tough decisions, but they wanted to get that money out quickly. We wanted to do it as quickly as possible, and at the time I accepted that rationale. I didn't like the fact that some people got more money than others and how it was arranged, but I accepted that the money needed to get out the door.

Now, let's turn to the budget. There are $500 cheques going out this time, but only to seniors over the age of 75. When did the deputy minister advise the minister that seniors over the age of 75 should be receiving a $500 cheque, or did the deputy minister advise the minister to issue $500 cheques?

5:30 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Employment and Social Development

Annette Gibbons

The decisions around the specifics of those, and this was announced in the budget....

We have a detailed process every year where we work in the department providing advice. Ministers make decisions about what to seek in the budget and present that to the Minister of Finance, as you know. All of the discussions we would have on any file that is going to be the subject of a budget determination, if you will, went through that process, including this one.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

You can't tell me whether or not the department advised the minister to issue $500 cheques.

5:30 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Employment and Social Development

Annette Gibbons

There was a decision. I mean, everything is a conversation with ministers, and—

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

But there's a paper record in your department, and surely there must have been a memo from, say, the director of policy, recommending that seniors receive a $500 cheque. Was there a memo issued by the director of policy for seniors at your department to issue a $500 cheque in August?

5:30 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Employment and Social Development

Annette Gibbons

I won't get into the details of the back and forth because those are the recommendations to the minister, and, quite honestly, I was not an associate in the department at that time—

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

It doesn't matter if you were in the department at that time or not.

5:30 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Employment and Social Development

Annette Gibbons

No, I understand. What I can tell you is that there is a back and forth on budget proposals and different options are considered, and different options for implementations are considered, so when—

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

I know there's a back and forth, Madame Gibbons, but I know that department officials also write recommendations and the minister has the right to either approve or deny that recommendation.

My question is this: Was there a recommendation to issue a payment in August for seniors over the age of 75 from the policy branch at your department?

5:35 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Employment and Social Development

Annette Gibbons

The reason I'm not giving you a specific response is that there is always back and forth about what's possible, the timing of making different changes, and—

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

Okay.

Maybe, then, could you, for all committee members, table the advice given to the minister in advance of the budget, including the recommendations for the minister to include in the budget?

5:35 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Employment and Social Development

Annette Gibbons

That's part of the budget process, which I'm not—

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

I'm going to have to file an ATIP. Is that what you're saying?