Evidence of meeting #24 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was affordable.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
You'll have to speak to Mr. Long.
Ms. Chabot, you have six minutes.
12:40 p.m.
Bloc
Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC
Thank you very much.
I thank the witnesses for their comments.
Mr. Dorais, I'd like to give you the opportunity to talk to us about a topic that you haven't had time to address, but that you would like to talk about. It's related to the study before us.
The objective of the federal lands initiative is to identify properties owned by the federal government that can be made available to municipalities or other stakeholders to increase the supply of housing.
What is your opinion on this?
12:45 p.m.
Benoit Dorais
Thank you very much for allowing me to address this issue. I ran out of time.
What I said is that the initiative makes a lot of sense and is very good. However, there is a lot of obscurity surrounding the program. It's very hard to get information about it. We're in the city of Montreal, which is a large Canadian city, and we're unable to get the location or type of lands available, or find out whether they're contaminated or what the terms of acquisition are. It's not possible.
According to the website we're referred to, there's unfortunately no land. It's indicated that there's none. However, there certainly should be some. It's very difficult.
As well, the government should also ensure that the lands managed by the Canada Lands Company are available for the creation of social, community and affordable housing. That's currently the case in Montreal with the Peel Basin. The City of Montréal has established an entire plan for that area of Cité-du-Havre. Unfortunately, the land is not designated as a priority for the construction of social and community housing.
One of the first very important contributions of land that could be made would be those lands held by the Canada Lands Company. The City of Montréal could then house thousands of Montrealers.
12:45 p.m.
Bloc
Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC
Thank you, Mr. Dorais.
I'd like to ask you some other questions, and time is running out fast.
You talked a lot about construction. As we know, the labour shortage has led to supply delays, among other things.
Other witnesses have told us that it is better to purchase housing units, particularly in Montreal, instead of building new ones. According to a social economy approach, the acquisitions could be dedicated to affordable housing, which is more sustainable.
Do you think that's a good idea? Will they be able to be built? Construction can take a number of years, but there's currently a housing shortage. How can the gap be reduced between housing demand and supply.
12:45 p.m.
Benoit Dorais
I totally agree. I think we need the right mix of the two.
The city is already in construction mode, in terms of its by-laws and new programs and in terms of the rapid housing initiative—the RHI—the AccèsLogis Québec program and the AccèsLogis Montréal program, among others.
The construction pipeline needs to be fed. What can be done right away, given that the construction of new housing units can take time, is to socialize housing, in other words, remove housing units from the market logic and purchase and renovate them. The City of Montréal believes in that. As well, line 3, the innovation line—a program for social, community and affordable housing—has already been funded. Funding has been provided to organizations that purchase real estate complexes, that can renovate them, within a certain amount of time, and that ensure that the affordability is sustainable.
Of the 60,000 housing units that the City of Montréal wants to offer over the next 10 years, a significant proportion will be social housing. It must be possible to acquire and maintain affordable housing, so housing that is not expensive.
12:45 p.m.
Bloc
Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC
The $4 billion in funding is important, but it will be divided across Canada. Within five years, it will support the efforts by the City of Montréal, which are quite well documented.
I will conclude by saying that I'm nonetheless concerned to hear Mr. Dorais and other witnesses mention that the funds should be allocated to the municipalities.
Quebec has the Société d'habitation du Québec, and the importance of its program is well known. There are 1,107 municipalities in Quebec that are part of it. I could talk at length about Tadoussac, where the housing crisis is very well documented. It even affects several municipalities with 800 residents.
If the funds were allocated directly to the municipalities, there would clearly be a problem in relation to equity. What do you think?
12:45 p.m.
Benoit Dorais
I think it would be beneficial to have a portion of the funds reserved for large municipalities. If my memory serves me, Mayor Taylor mentioned that the resources and expertise are there, that action can be taken.
That said, 50% of the funds should be reserved for all other municipalities, which could work with partners. It's entirely possible. I know there may be a housing crisis in Tadoussac. There is a housing crisis across Quebec, not just in Montreal.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you, Ms. Chabot and Mr. Dorais.
We'll now have Madam Zarrillo for six minutes.
12:50 p.m.
NDP
Bonita Zarrillo NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'm not sure if my headset will be appropriate.
Can you just check the sound? If not, I'll have to cede my time.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
12:50 p.m.
NDP
Bonita Zarrillo NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
All right. I'll speak again.
Mr. Chair, can you just verify that this headset will be appropriate or adequate?
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Yes, she gave a thumbs-up....
No, Madam Zarrillo. No, we're getting a thumbs-down. They cannot interpret that.
12:50 p.m.
NDP
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you, Madam Zarrillo.
We will remind members that they need the House of Commons headset to participate.
We'll now go to Mr. Ruff for five minutes.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Alex Ruff Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON
Thanks, Chair.
I have some simple questions right off the get-go for all the witnesses. I'm looking for almost yes-or-no feedback to get us going.
First off, could each of the cities could provide, number one, the number of housing units and rental units that they're short and, number two, the average household price and rental price for the respective communities? Number three, do they have any land in their municipalities that meets the federal lands initiative, yes or no?
Could we could start with Newmarket, please?
12:50 p.m.
John Taylor
I'm not sure I'm talented enough to remember all of them and give yes or no answers. I apologize.
I don't believe we have a shortage of housing supply. I would urge this committee not to make this all about housing supply and municipal process. We are short to uncertain on subsidized housing. As I said, it's a 15,000-person wait list. Our average rent is about $3 a square foot. Our average home price is about $1.3 million.
Finally, in terms of land, I'm not sure what criteria you referred to, but I can tell you this: I believe that dollars to purchase land should not be supported. Government, at all levels, has the land needed, either in raw form or for intensification purposes. That land should come from government at no cost. That's why I moved a motion, successfully, at York Region, on each city and town in the region providing two acres of land every five years for an affordable housing project. We're moving that forward.
Thank you.
12:50 p.m.
Benoit Dorais
Unfortunately, I can't give you the exact number. That said, we would be pleased to forward it to you.
It is important to understand that there are 28,000 people on the wait list for social and community housing in the city of Montreal, so there is certainly a very real need.
I would be pleased to forward you the requested information.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
12:50 p.m.
Manager, City of Saint John
The City of Saint John can provide the committee with our entire housing needs assessment, which was recently completed. It lays out a number of the figures you're seeking. The short answer is, there are well over 2,000 on the waiting list, and I referred to the fact that we have many who are just on the line, on top of that. That number will be going up.
In terms of land, there is no shortage of land in the City of Saint John. We can find the land necessary to build the units, but we are also fixed on mixed neighbourhoods. Therefore, it becomes a challenge to make the necessary lands available in all the various neighbourhoods.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Alex Ruff Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON
Thank you.
Yes, it would be great if all the communities could get that data sent to the committee.
One of the interesting things that previous witnesses brought up is the fact that the mandate letter to the minister says the housing accelerator fund is directed toward the larger cities. We've received confirmation since, in the budget, that it is going to be for smaller and rural communities.
Recognizing that the three municipalities represented and testifying here today are all considerably larger than those in my neck of the woods—my largest city, Owen Sound, has only just over 22,000 people—my question is this: What percentage of this funding from the federal side should be broken down and protected for smaller and rural communities?
I'm interested in Saint John's take first, as it's the smallest community represented here today at this testimony, I think.
12:55 p.m.
Manager, City of Saint John
If I may, I'd like to piggyback on Mayor Taylor's comment. I think it should be primarily focused on service providers. A lot of the smaller communities are provided the service of housing from larger regional entities, etc. In New Brunswick, we don't have a regional government structure, so it's the cities themselves.
I believe there needs to be some sort of mathematical calculation for all the various service providers—at whatever level of municipal government—to make a determination as to what their proportionate share should be within their communities.
12:55 p.m.
John Taylor
I would generally agree. I don't think it's the size of the community. It's the role the community plays, whether as an urban centre for surrounding smaller places, or as a service provider. However, if many small municipalities that aren't really “in housing” and don't have the expertise or housing staff are trying, all of a sudden, to grapple with this, it would be inefficient and probably won't lead to the best use of dollars.
We serve communities around us. There are service providers that can do it for the entire catchment area, and do it well.
