Human Resources Committee on Oct. 31st, 2022

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

We'll suspend for a few minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Welcome back.

The committee will resume its study of Bill C-22, an act to reduce poverty and to support the financial security of persons with disabilities by establishing the Canada disability benefit and making a consequential amendment to the Income Tax Act.

To assist the interpreters in their work, I kindly remind all members and witnesses appearing today to introduce themselves when speaking and to speak slowly.

To the witnesses appearing virtually or in the room, you may choose to speak in the official language of your choice. If interpretation services are interrupted, please get my attention. We'll suspend while it's corrected.

Please wait until I recognize you before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike. Please mute yourself when you are not speaking. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly.

I remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

I will now welcome our witnesses to begin the discussion. We have five minutes for opening remarks, followed by questions.

From the Canadian National Institute for the Blind, we have Thomas Simpson, executive director of public affairs and Bryanna Regimbald, program coordinator; from Disability Without Poverty, we have Michelle Hewitt, chair, board of directors and Rabia Khedr, national director; from the Multiple Sclerosis Society of Canada, we have Julie Kelndorfer, director of government relations and advocacy and Marie-Ève Simard, marketing and communications director.

We will start with Mr. Simpson for five minutes.

Mr. Simpson, you have the floor.

[Thomas Simpson, Executive Director, Public Affairs, Canadian National Institute for the Blind]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My name is Thomas Simpson. I'm the executive director of public affairs and Come to Work at CNIB. Joining me today is my colleague Bryanna Regimbald, a coordinator with our Come to Work program.

For 104 years, CNIB has been the largest organization supporting Canadians who are blind or partially sighted. We offer emotional and social support programs for those with sight loss, from coast to coast to coast. CNIB is pleased to appear before HUMA today in support of Bill C-22. Our testimony represents the feedback and opinions of the sight loss community, based on extensive consultation CNIB undertook this year.

Let me be clear. People living with a disability need the Canada disability benefit, and we're pleased to see legislation introduced that removes people with disabilities from poverty. Today we will provide an overview of why people who are blind or partially sighted need this benefit, and we'll offer considerations to strengthen the legislation.

I'll turn it over to my colleague.

[Bryanna Regimbald, Program Coordinator, Canadian National Institute for the Blind]

Thank you, Thomas.

My name is Bryanna Regimbald and I am the program coordinator for Come to Work at CNIB. I'm a person living with sight loss. I have had sight loss since birth. We at Come to Work aim to support participants who are fully blind and partially sighted. In my day to day, working with participants has brought up many barriers and concerns relating to social assistance and the low amount holding them in an impoverished state.

Throughout many aspects of my life...I have faced many challenges pertaining to education, employment and daily living activities. Many participants I speak with in the vision loss community are on social assistance and do not want to continue to rely on it. The cost of living has gone up for everyone. For people with disabilities, this has been compounded. Imagine navigating societal barriers every day because of your disability, then imagine the compounding barriers faced by living in poverty.

People with sight loss face increased costs associated with their disability, including private transportation, high-tech items that assist with independent wayfinding and, in some instances, even veterinary care for guide dogs.

I hope this legislation passes quickly, so the government can quickly work with the disability community to define eligibility criteria and a dollar amount, and to establish a process with the provinces and territories that realizes the intent of this Canada disability benefit.

I'm going to now turn it back over to Thomas.

[Thomas Simpson]

Thank you, Bryanna.

Committee members, I ask you to consider several recommended changes to help strengthen Bill C-22.

First, a Canada disability benefit must be implemented in tandem with a national employment strategy for persons with disabilities. This will ensure that the CDB does not keep people with disabilities who can work trapped on social assistance. The CDB must be designed to be a trampoline from poverty to employment rather than a net to catch people. This strategy must target employers and highlight the benefits of hiring people with disabilities, inclusive of sight loss.

While seniors are eligible for OAS and GIS, disability and poverty do not magically go away at age 65. In some provinces, once an individual reaches 65, some of their provincial supports end. For example, the guide dog benefit under the ODSP, which is an extra $84 per month to help with the cost of a guide dog, ends at age 65. Seniors with sight loss in Ontario must cover alone those costs that had been subsidized. Members of this community should remove references to age restrictions within the legislation.

As Bryanna and I work with our Come to Work program, we see first-hand how current and inadequate provincial and territorial disability support programs disincentivize people from finding employment for fear that they will lose their essential medical services or other benefits associated with provincial programs. Quite simply, this legislation needs to address this and ensure that money or other benefits are not clawed back in a way that disincentivizes people who can work and want to work.

This legislation will confirm important elements of the CDB within regulation. The CNIB recommends that the legislation be amended to require that these regulations are adopted within one year of the legislation coming into force, to ensure no delay for the millions of Canadians waiting for this program.

Finally, we believe that the Canada child benefit is a program that the CDB should mirror. The Universal Child Care Benefit Act, the legislation that governs the Canada child benefit, spells out the amount that the program must remit to Canadians. CNIB suggest that Bill C-22 be amended to identify a mandatory minimum that people with disabilities will receive from the CDB.

In conclusion, the CNIB is supportive of Bill C-22. It must be passed and implemented as quicky as possible. The CNIB would also like to publicly support the briefs provided by the AODA Alliance and the Alliance for Equality of Blind Canadians.

We'd be happy to answer any questions you have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Simpson and Madam Regimbald.

Now we'll go to Disability Without Poverty.

You have the floor for five minutes.

[Michelle Hewitt, Chair, Board of Directors, Disability Without Poverty]

Thank you for inviting us to speak today.

My name is Michelle Hewitt, and I am the chair of Disability Without Poverty. With me is Rabia Khedr, the national director of Disability Without Poverty.

We come before you today to talk about the Canada disability benefit bill, Bill C-22, and the need for it to reach disabled people living in poverty as quickly as possible, including Black, indigenous and racialized people with disabilities, who are even further marginalized in our society.

The statistics relating to disabled people living in poverty are appalling. There are twice as many disabled people living in poverty than those who are not disabled. This is Canada in 2022. No one deserves to live in poverty, and certainly not from the lottery of life that saw them born with a disability or acquire one later on.

Disabled people do not live in poverty because they are worthless to society. It is quite the opposite; it is because their worth is not valued. In fact, people with disabilities contribute over $47 billion to the Canadian economy.

Being disabled is not cheap. Tylenol goes from being a headache pill to a daily pain control medication. Our most personal daily activities, like toileting, are not free. I have a friend who waited three years for a replacement power wheelchair through her provincial program, only to find that the only wheelchair offered does not fit her. It's way too big.

We talk about lifting disabled people out of poverty, but what does that really mean? Canada's official poverty lines use the market basket measure, which fails to take disability into account.

We hear the stories of disabled people living in poverty on a daily basis, as they are our friends and family. We can tell you about the man who approached Rabia in the parking lot of a grocery store offering to swap bus tickets for food, or my friend who lives month to month with MAID approved, wondering if this month will be her last because she can't afford to live.

Throughout these hearings, you are going to hear many unique stories about disabled people living in poverty, but there will be a common theme. We are all united on the fact that there needs to be an end to disability poverty, and that the time is now.

On October 19, we had the honour of being in the gallery when the vote for second reading of Bill C-22 took place in the House. It was very emotional for the 10 members of our delegation to see the unanimous vote unfold in front of us. We are here today to ask that you continue in that spirit of bipartisanship to move this bill along to third reading, get unanimous support there, pass it to the Senate with all speed and ultimately have it receive royal assent.

We believe that this benefit will be most effectively delivered if the details are co-created with disabled people like us. That collaboration cannot happen in this committee, in the House or the Senate. It can happen only in the development of regulations with disabled people as equals in that process of collaboration.

Take a second to reflect on that person in your life that you have crossed paths with who is disabled. Ask yourself what they need this committee to do.

Right now, they need you to move this framework legislation on. Implore your parliamentary colleagues to do the right thing for disabled people by continuing that bipartisanship and moving it through third reading unanimously, with no further debate. Tell your colleagues on the finance committee that they must put money in the spring budget of 2023 to start paying this benefit out in the fall of 2023. Urge the civil servants working on the implementation of the benefit to ask themselves if the processes they create truly benefit disabled people, or if they are caught up in the old ways of ableism that are so endemic in our systems.

Time is of the essence. Food inflation is at 11.6%, yet provincial disability payments are not index-linked. This means that in real terms, disabled people fall further behind every day.

There is yet another hard winter in front of disabled people, but you have the power to make sure it is the last one with so many living below the poverty line. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Hewitt.

Now we'll go to the Multiple Sclerosis Society of Canada for five minutes.

[Julie Kelndorfer, Director, Government Relations and Advocacy, Multiple Sclerosis Society of Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and good afternoon, members of the committee.

My name is Julie Kelndorfer, and I, along with my colleague Marie-Ève Simard, are here representing the Multiple Sclerosis Society of Canada. We are honoured to present to your committee as you study Bill C-22, the Canada disability benefit act.

To begin, Canada has one of the highest rates of MS in the world. With this autoimmune disorder, the body mistakenly attacks its own central nervous system, disrupting the signals coming from the brain and spinal cord. No two people experience MS in the same way. Symptoms vary from loss of vision or mobility to fatigue and incontinence. While some begin experiencing the disease as a progressive decline in ability from the outset, the majority experience MS in a cycle of relapses and remissions known as episodes, so this is an episodic disability. Unfortunately for many, the damage from these episodes accumulates over time, resulting in permanent disability progression.

Currently, we have no cure. For many like me—I was diagnosed 18 years ago, when my son was just one year old—living with MS means a life of uncertainty: the uncertainty of not knowing if a symptom like the tremors in my hands when I couldn’t even cut my own food at dinner will last a day, a month or a year, or if they will ever go away. Each day we wake up not knowing what lies ahead.

The MS Society’s goal is to ensure that Canadians living with MS and their families can participate fully in all aspects of life despite this uncertainty. Income security is fundamental to that. We’re here today to stress the urgent need for the Canada disability benefit act and to stress that it be inclusive of Canadians living with episodic disability by amending the act to include the same definition of disability as the one found in the Accessible Canada Act.

The effects of poverty for Canadians living with MS cannot be understated. Research on the disease has found that individuals with lower socio-economic status had a higher risk of disability progression and poorer prognoses, reaching physical disability milestones faster, like difficulty walking.

Research also shows that the serious economic consequences of MS begin within the first few years of diagnosis. Challenged by paying for medication, rehabilitation treatments and transportation, living with MS is compounded by the need for services and equipment to aid lost abilities. Feeding, mobility and bathing aids are just some of the items needed in a list that’s as lengthy as it is expensive. Imagine having to choose between heating your home or travelling to medical appointments, or between buying decent food or seeing a physiotherapist to help you walk.

Early intervention with life-altering, disease-modifying treatments can slow or halt irreversible disability, but the cost of treatments is significant. A 2020 Conference Board of Canada report found that in just one year, Canadians living with MS and their families paid over $39 million out of pocket.

If you or your family are unable to afford treatments, your MS can get worse, making it more difficult to work and live an independent life, putting further pressure on your financial situation and leading to even worse symptoms. It's a downward spiral.

The challenges that living with MS bring, coupled with multiple barriers in current government support systems, have only been amplified during the pandemic and by today’s rising cost of living, and there is a gender dimension, as 75% of Canadians living with MS are women.

Just as the Canada disability benefit targets working-age Canadians, so, too, does MS. Most people are diagnosed between the ages of 20 and 49, which are prime career, family-building and earning years for people.

Ray, who lives with MS, worries about his stop work day, as more than 60% of people diagnosed with MS eventually reach unemployment, which is high, given their educational and vocational histories. This HUMA committee in 2019 studied the needs of Canadians with episodic disabilities, describing the income and employment context, and produced an excellent report.

The committee has an important opportunity to align this act with the most current definition of disability found in the Accessible Canada Act.

The MS community, alongside episodic disability partners, worked hard during the Accessible Canada Act consultations to be recognized by having episodic disabilities included in the definition of disability. It was monumental for our community; we now had a definition of disability that included us. The expectation was that, moving forward, all legislation and programs would explicitly contain this inclusive definition of disability.

Each day, people with MS wake up to adversity and do everything in their power to persevere.

As they struggle to make ends meet, let’s work together to pass this legislation quickly, ease their struggle, reduce poverty, and support the financial security of working-age persons with all types of disabilities, including episodic ones.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Kelndorfer.

Now we'll start our opening round. Before we do, I'll just remind members again to please introduce yourselves when I recognize you, and clearly identify which witness you want to direct your question to.

Ms. Ferreri, you have six minutes.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Hi, everybody. I am Michelle Ferreri, the member of Parliament for Peterborough—Kawartha. I'm happy to be here. This is a very important bill that we are discussing.

I would like to start my question with Thomas—if I may call you Thomas. Thank you very much for your testimony.

Thank you to all of you for your testimony.

Michelle, yours was very powerful as well.

Your points about a national employment strategy really hit home. I think you're bang on with a lot of what you were saying about making sure workplace employers are open-minded to a lot of this. What I really want to delve into is.... You referred to the fact that you're supportive of this bill. I think everybody is supportive of helping and doing what we need to do, doing the right thing. There's a fine line, and I'm trying not to be too critical, but we have to be fairly critical to ensure that it is done properly. You made reference to the Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act Alliance, AODA, and that you are supporting their recommendations. It's a fairly harsh letter.

If you don't mind, I'm just going to read a couple of things, and I'm going to get your feedback, if that's okay. It says, “In summary, here is what's wrong with the bill as it is now written”. I'm not going to read the whole thing, because there are a few pages here, but I'm going to read a couple of paragraphs.

The bill does not ensure that there is a swift, fair, non-bureaucratic and accessible way for people with disabilities to apply for the Canada Disability Benefit, or a fair and swift appeal process for people who apply for it and are refused it.

The bill’s stated purpose is itself impoverished. It does not seek to eliminate poverty among people with disabilities. It does not even seek to significantly reduce poverty facing people with disabilities. ... The most tiny improvement for people with disabilities would entirely fulfil that paltry goal.

It also talks about how the bill “sets no minimum amount for the Canada Disability Benefit or a start date for the Government to start paying”, as well as the age.

How do you feel about this? In trying to meet those timely...and get it done and get this rolled out, how feasible do you think these recommendations are?

[Thomas Simpson]

First, I will say, of course, that I believe David Lepofsky of the AODA Alliance will be joining committee as a witness in testimony, and I'm sure he will love to answer that question as well.

The CNIB, as an organization that.... We like to say we're a megaphone for the voices of people with disabilities. This brief we've come up with is not one where we've had people in a room in Toronto who just came up with it. This is based on the experiences and thoughts of people living with sight loss, people who are blind or partially sighted, or have deaf-blindness. There are folks who have wide thoughts on the bill, saying, “We need the money now. Get it over and done with. You people on Parliament Hill can figure it out quickly.”

People are saying there are problems with it. I think what you will find within our brief, which will be submitted after this as part of our testimony, is that there are small tweaks that can be made to the legislation to ensure that those anxieties are overcome by certain people within the disability community and that timelines are put into the legislation. The Accessible Canada Act, when it was being developed, put into the legislation timelines for the first regs to be developed. I don't know why we can't do the same thing here, ensuring that this is done within one year of the coming into force of the legislation.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you. That's great feedback.

Michelle, if I may turn it to you.... I mean, it is disturbing—to put it mildly—to hear you, but it's reality when you have so many people living with disabilities who are considering MAID, medical assistance in dying, instead of living. Do you want to expand on how real that is for the disabled community?

[Michelle Hewitt]

It's extremely real.

I gave testimony to the MAID committee, the joint committee of the House and the Senate, earlier this year. The friend I mentioned is somebody with post-viral syndrome, basically, and, as we live in this post-COVID era, we don't know how many people are going to join that. She's somebody who just cannot afford to pay for treatment. We know there are people in Ontario who have used MAID this year because their housing was toxic to them, not because they didn't want to live and not because their suffering was irremediable. The remedy to their suffering was financial: Their suffering was because they lived in poverty.

I truly believe that we're out of whack at the moment, in that we have legislation by this government that is moving forward. In March 2023 it will include more people who can apply for MAID, but that's only half the picture. We're not looking at the poverty angle and at the way people are being forced to live.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Very quickly, you commented that it needs to be co-created with the disabled community. I'm just curious. We just had the minister testify. Do you not feel that the community was consulted enough on this bill?

[Michelle Hewitt]

I know your time is short.... Do you mind if I pass it to Rabia?

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Please do.

[Rabia Khedr, National Director, Disability Without Poverty]

My name is Rabia Khedr. I also happen to be blind, by the way, and I work with people with all sorts of disabilities, including intellectual disabilities. The idea of co-creation goes well beyond consultation. Yes, we have been consulted, as people with disabilities, as allies and as supporters for the last couple of years, and for years we've been advising and appealing to government to put in more financial supports for people with disabilities.

“Co-creation” means we are sitting as equal partners at the table—that people with disabilities from diverse backgrounds, with diverse lived experiences, are involved as equal partners in the spirit of equity around a table with folks from government, with bureaucrats who are going to nail down the regulations, from design and development to implementation.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Ferreri.

We have Mr. Collins for six minutes.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chairman.

It's Chad Collins, member for Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, speaking.

If I could, through you, Mr. Chair, I'll start first with Mr. Simpson.

Part of Bill C-22 is to support the financial security of working-age persons with disabilities. What does financial security look like for your constituency with the CNIB?

[Thomas Simpson]

That's a great question.

The reality is that if you're living with a disability, regardless of what type of disability, there are extra costs associated with it. In a second, I will ask my colleague Bryanna to explain her experiences as someone with a lived experience.

It includes many things, such as the extra costs to get around in your community, because someone who is mildly or partially sighted does not often have the ability to drive, for example, and without having support from a family member or a friend to do so, it means having to take a bus, an Uber or any other ride-share. There's the cost of veterinary appointments, as my colleague has pointed out, for those who have a guide dog. The list goes on, but I will ask Bryanna to share her lived experience.

[Bryanna Regimbald]

Thank you, Thomas.

As Thomas stated, there are many costs that people—and this is not to blame—often don't think about as we understand it, whether it be supplies for a guide cane or supplies for guide dogs and things like that, which may not be covered by certain finances. For example, for me, previously.... If I was living in an area on the outskirts, for example, in the suburbs, sometimes there might not necessarily be public transportation available, or there's a further walk that, across the board, people with sight loss sometimes don't.... There are people from partially sighted to fully blind who aren't comfortable doing certain things at different stages. Maybe someone is not comfortable with walking to an accessible bus stop, so they would have to call for a taxi to get to employment, and things like that.

Across the board, there are many finances that aren't considered, unfortunately, and that's just based on the knowledge of what comes with sight loss for different people. For me, throughout school, there were different resources I needed, which sometimes would cost various amounts of money. As for trying to get those supports, it varies.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you both for those answers.

The minister was very clear: The benefit is to supplement existing provincial and territorial benefits. Mr. Simpson, I think you referenced that in your opening—the importance of ensuring there are no clawbacks. Part of her explanation today was that the legislative framework now requires us to go through consultation with the provinces and territories to ensure that this is a top-up and that we get as many people out of poverty as possible.

Could you elaborate on the issue of clawbacks and the point you made in your opening about the importance of ensuring this is topping up and a supplement to the existing support payments your constituency already receives across the country?