Human Resources Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Chabot.

Madame Zarrillo has two and a half minutes to conclude the first hour.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I wanted to revisit this idea of the necessities of life because of what we heard in some testimony.

Mr. Gladstone, I will ask you to answer first, and then Mr. Neven.

What we heard in some testimony was that it costs more to have a disability. It costs more than the average necessities of life, even with our Poverty Reduction Act, which talks about a poverty level or a poverty line. Mr. Neven, you talked about a $1,000 gap in housing alone.

Mr. Gladstone, do you have any suggestions for what financial security needs to look like in the way of a minimum benefit, and what kinds of things it needs to cover?

[Gary Gladstone]

I can only speak to Ontario.

I will take the number of $1,000 from Mr. Neven, because it's about the number I would use as well, but the extra expenses are large. Never mind the supports that are generally provided by the government; there are the extra supplies for everyday living, from clothing that is more expensive to diapers. Obviously that does not apply for everybody, but for some. There are the wheelchairs for the mobility challenged. It's all expensive. Some is covered; some is not, at various levels. The increase is absolutely needed.

For Ontario, if we're in a position to get an extra $1,000 a month, I think that would be life-changing and life-altering.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Neven, do you have any comments?

[Jeffrey Neven]

I would concur with Mr. Gladstone that assistive devices are expensive and that there are additional limitations around transportation. You're not going to those big-box stores out in the suburbs to get those low-cost items.

The provision of food is expensive. It's hard to come by, which we're hearing from many folks, particularly if you have limited means for transportation or have mobility challenges. Those are certainly some things to consider.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

All right. Thank you.

For my last point, I have a couple of minutes or maybe a minute on eligibility. Do you have—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

You have 30 seconds.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Okay.

Mr. Neven, do you have any comments on eligibility and who should be included on the eligibility side?

Mr. Gladstone can answer as well, if there's any time, or maybe you could send in a written response.

[Jeffrey Neven]

Again, very pragmatically, we want to expedite this measure and see that it happens quickly. If there's a way in the regulations to work with the provinces to extend provincial disability programs, it might be the quickest way to implement this.

However, there are some challenges for folks who might be disqualified from those programs for some reason, and who may need to be included in the federal program.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Give a short answer, Mr. Gladstone.

[Gary Gladstone]

I would mention that the federal government currently has programs like the disability tax credit. The provincial governments have, in Ontario's case, the ODSP. To Mr. Neven's comment, it could be used with the ability to appeal if one is not eligible for a program for whatever reason, so that the eligibility will still be there.

In terms of the cost, I'll mention one ridiculousness of living in York Region and sometimes having to go to Toronto. Going back and forth, you know that as soon as you cross Steeles, and although each municipality has a wonderful transit service for those with disabilities, you have to take a taxi, and up goes the cost. If you did not have a disability, you would not have that issue.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madame Zarrillo.

Thank you to the witnesses.

We'll suspend for two minutes while we change the panels.

Again, thank you, witnesses, for your time and testimony before this committee on this important bill.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Welcome back.

The committee will resume its study of Bill C-22, an act to reduce poverty and support the financial security of persons with disabilities by establishing the Canada disability benefit and making consequential amendments to the Income Tax Act.

To assist the interpreters in their work, I kindly remind all members and witnesses appearing today to introduce themselves when speaking and to speak slowly. Nobody did that in the first round.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses.

You may speak in the official language of your choice. Interpretation services are available for the meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen if you're appearing virtually of either “floor”, “English”, or “French”. Please wait until I recognize you before speaking.

For those participating via video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike and please mute yourself when you are not speaking. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly.

I want to emphasize that we are doing interpretation and interpretation in sign language as well.

I would like to welcome our witnesses to begin our discussion, with but before I do, I forgot to acknowledge Ms. Shelby Kramp-Neuman, who joins us this afternoon. Mr. Morrice is going to join us as well.

From Easter Seals Ontario, we have Alison Morse, senior manager for efficacy and family engagement.

From the Quebec Intellectual Disability Society, we have Amélie Duranleau, executive director, and Samuel Ragot, senior policy analyst and advocacy advisor.

From the Women's Legal Education and Action Fund, we have Jen Gammad, communications and advocacy manager.

We will start with Ms. Morse for five minutes, please.

Go ahead, Ms. Morse.

[Alison Morse, Senior Manager, Advocacy and Family Engagement, Easter Seals Ontario]

Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to speak here today.

I do go a little bit fast, but I'll try really hard to work on the pacing.

I have been involved with the Easter Seals for well over 30 years. I am the parent of a young person who was supported and I have lived experience of the ways that young people fall into poverty.

I've come here today with a message around families. The families of children with disabilities thought they would be part of this disability benefit. Because it says “persons with disabilities”, there was an expectation that it might be broader than it currently is. One thing I would look for in the preamble is to see if we can start to talk about how this may be the first stage in terms of supporting people with disabilities.

When I represent families, I see that they come from a place of fear at the very beginning as their child is diagnosed. They learn to advocate for their child in the education system and in the health care system. On a daily basis, these parents face the challenge of coming up with the money to pay for the equipment and programs that their child may need. Easter Seals Ontario tries to fill that gap. With money raised by donors, we assist families with the cost of equipment. Even with the contribution we make, there still can be a gap that the parents can't fill. Some parents will take on additional debt to cover that, and many other families will do without.

The cost of equipment for somebody with a physical disability can be astronomical. We're talking about $40,000 for a power wheelchair. There is some government funding, but it is very much aimed at the base model.

Recently, some young people we're supporting have gone to the wheelchairs that allow them to go from sitting to standing. We've seen the self-confidence and growth when they have access to that kind of equipment.

However, what Easter Seals funds is basic equipment, particularly bathroom equipment, which is not covered by the Government of Ontario, and accessibility equipment to enable a child to get into and out of their home and around their home, whether this be lifts or ramps. We fill in that gap.

Many families do not have enough money to buy equipment, so they have to come knocking at the door of charities. Charities do a wonderful job of filling the gap across the social service sector, but as a parent, it's hard to know that you can't support your child and that you have to go knocking at doors, begging to get extra money.

An additional challenge faced by families is the fear for the future. We're very excited about this bill and the fact that it is going to support working-age individuals or persons with a disability, because we know that one of the family's biggest fears is that there will not be enough money to support the person when they get to adulthood.

Some of the kids that we've supported at Easter Seals have a rosy future. They may be going on to post-secondary education. They have career prospects. However, for the majority, it's going to be a piecemeal of part-time jobs, periods of underemployment and unemployment. In addition, those with very severe disabilities are not going to be able to take part in work but are looking for full participation in the community. All of these kids want to be fully included. When their income is 40% below the poverty line here in Ontario, it's very challenging to get the things that make life worthwhile.

The earlier speakers were talking about having to make choices and families adding their names to the list for affordable housing. As has already been indicated in the previous panel, that can be a wait of many years. In some places it's 20 years, and aging parents are still having to support their child because there is not enough money for the individual child to manage on.

I'm here to talk about those fears and to advocate consideration of a long-term plan to expand the Canada disability benefit to include all people with disabilities, including those under the age of 18 and potentially those over the age of 65.

Do I have any more time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

You have 20 seconds, Ms. Morse. You may want to cover those items when you're answering some of the questions.

[Alison Morse]

Okay. Thank you very much for the opportunity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Morse.

Who is speaking for the Quebec Intellectual Disability Society?

Madame Duranleau, you have the floor.

[Amélie Duranleau, Executive Director, Quebec Intellectual Disability Society]

Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Chair, allow us to thank you for your invitation.

My name is Amélie Duranleau, and I'm the executive director of the Quebec Intellectual Disability Society. With me is Samuel Ragot, who is a policy analyst at the society and a doctoral student at McGill University's School of Social Work, working on financial security for persons with disabilities. We are very pleased to be here to share our thoughts on Bill C‑22.

First, we must emphasize that we are very much in favour of the swift passing of Bill C‑22, as it is a once-in-a-generation opportunity.

Of course, we are aware that legislators may find voting on a foundational bill, which contains few details, uncomfortable. However, we believe that this is the right thing to do.

On the one hand, consultations with the disability community are still ongoing and will provide key information and expertise. On the other hand, we have had successful experience in developing regulations in relation to a framework legislation in the context of the basic income program in Quebec. In this context, all the modalities of operation had been excluded from the law. We eventually worked with the provincial government for almost four years to come up with a set of regulations that were satisfactory to the majority of the parties involved. As a result, the timeline it set for itself has been met.

In the case of the Canada disability benefit, we think the timeline will be shorter, as many of the consultations with the provinces and territories are already well under way. Since it's possible to achieve success when we work together towards common good, we are confident that this approach is also achievable for the Canadian benefit.

[Samuel Ragot, Senior Policy Analyst and Advocacy Advisor, Quebec Intellectual Disability Society]

Good evening, ladies and gentlemen.

I would now like to address the importance of working with the provinces and territories. As you know, the provinces and territories all have financial assistance programs for persons with disabilities. It is therefore crucial the federal government works with provincial and territorial governments to avoid penalizing beneficiaries and to avoid disengagement of local governments in the social protection and financial security of persons with disabilities.

In Quebec, as of January 1, 2023, we will have a basic income program, a first in Canada and probably in the world. While this program is not perfect, and we continue to advocate with the provincial government, we must protect it and ensure that the Canadian benefit will not work against local programs in the provinces and territories and, most importantly, that it will actually help those who need it. So far, we are pleased with the approach taken.

We have news from the Quebec government. I spoke to the ministers yesterday, who told us that they were quite supportive of a complementary benefit to provincial programs. So we're satisfied with that collaborative approach, and we will obviously support all the steps taken in that direction. We are confident that such negotiations are possible. We have seen other cases where this has been successful.

In addition to working with the provinces and territories, we think it is equally important that the Canada disability benefit be fully individualized, that it be a cheque for each person and that it should not take into account the income of spouses in order to limit issues of financial dependency, that it should provide a real way out of poverty, and that it should allow people to work without any clawbacks. We think it's a matter of dignity.

In fact, the current provincial and territorial programs are mostly punitive. They are not really aimed at the well-being of individuals, but rather at the minimal maintenance of living conditions. It is imperative to move away from this vision of welfare, which has been described as

“welfarization” of disabilities.

All these fundamental, but very technical elements—emphasis on the word “technical”—should be discussed in the regulatory process and not through amendments to Bill C‑22.

[Amélie Duranleau]

Indeed, in our opinion, it is adequate to set the parameters of the act through a process of consultation and work with the community. The involvement of persons with disabilities, experts and governments will be crucial. Thus far, we have seen encouraging signs from the government in this regard.

Finally, ladies and gentlemen, rest assured that we will be ready to participate in this process. We will be more than happy to share our experience in Quebec on these issues with all of you.

Thank you for moving forward with this very important bill. This is an opportunity that should not be missed. Too many people depend on it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Duranleau.

Ms. Gammad, you have five minutes, please.

[Jen Gammad, Communications and Advocacy Manager, Women's Legal Education and Action Fund]

Good evening, committee members, and thank you for inviting me here today.

My name is Jen Gammad. I am the communications and advocacy manager at the Women's Legal Education and Action Fund, or LEAF for short.

I am grateful to be calling in from Tkaronto, known as Toronto. This land is governed by the dish with one spoon wampum belt covenant.

LEAF is a national charity that works towards ensuring that the law guarantees substantive equality for all women, girls, trans and non-binary people in Canada.

LEAF is here today as an organization allied to disabled communities and organizations that advocate for them. Disability justice is gender justice. Our struggles cannot be separated. We recognize that it is because of the tireless advocacy of these communities that this bill exists in the first place.

I would also like to thank Dr. Sally A. Kimpson, disability scholar and advocate, who authored LEAF's report, “Basic Income, Gender & Disability.” LEAF's brief, which we have submitted to the committee, and our position are based on her work.

It is our position that Bill C-22 must be passed as quickly as possible. Disabled women, trans people and non-binary people are among the poorest people in Canada, and they cannot afford to wait any longer.

Make no mistake: Disability poverty is gendered. Reports show that as high as one in three women with disabilities lives in poverty. On average, they make less than disabled men and non-disabled women. Disabled women who are single, single parents, indigenous, racialized, working class and/or newcomers live in the deepest poverty.

Safety is an often-overlooked basic need that is threatened by both ableism and poverty. Disabled women are twice as likely as non-disabled women to be subjected to violence. They are subjected to a wider range and subtler forms of violence, such as caregiver neglect. For those financially dependent on their family, spouse or caregiver, which may often be the case, it may be impossible to leave a violent or abusive situation.

Disability poverty is a vicious structural cycle that contributes to substantive inequality. Without financial security, disabled women and trans people are deprived of and further excluded from a range of cultural, economic, educational, political and social activities and exposed to more violence. Poverty takes away choice, and policy failures create and exacerbate such conditions.

I will touch on existing disability supports in Canada and how they fail to meet the needs of disabled women and trans people.

Disabled women are three times more likely to rely on government transfers than their non-disabled counterparts and more likely than disabled men. However, this country's current provision of supports keeps women, trans and non-binary people poor. For example, the largest source of income for low-income, working-age, disabled women in Canada is from government transfers, mostly provincial or territorial disability benefits, which make up over three-quarters of their total income on average, yet all provincial and territorial support amounts are set far below the market basket measure for their region, and that's not even accounting for the extraordinary costs of being disabled.

Dr. Kimpson accurately described Canada's current range of disability supports as “a fragmented and uncoordinated patchwork of supports” with differing eligibility criteria amounts, types of benefits and definitions of disability. Many find the process of accessing existing supports confusing, which can discourage folks from applying at all.

The Canada disability benefit, if designed and implemented correctly, provides an opportunity to reach more people who need it, to be less stringent and complicated to apply for than existing benefits and to lift disabled people out of poverty— so how do we get there? The cost of living is skyrocketing, and disability supports continue to stagnate. We cannot delay action any longer.

LEAF urges this government to pass Bill C-22 without delay and ensure that disabled communities lead the design, implementation and evaluation of the benefit.

We amplify the demands of disability rights organizations such as Disability Without Poverty and say that what matters most here is that we get the CDB rolled out as soon as possible and that it's done in collaboration and co-development with disabled people and disabled women who have the expertise to ensure that people don't fall through the cracks.

Such a benefit would be dignity-enhancing. It would promote autonomy. It would reduce the substantive inequality that disabled women and trans people face. Most of all, it would give them more choice in how they want to live their lives.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Gammad.

We will go to Ms. Ferreri for six minutes.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you so much to our witnesses.

I'm very fortunate to have worked with Easter Seals over my career and have lots of personal connections to people living with intellectual disabilities as well and have been able to work with them throughout my career. I know how important the work is that you guys and Jen from LEAF are doing. Thank you for what you're doing.

I want to use this six minutes as efficiently as we can. I think we all know that this bill needs to get passed. We all know there is a crisis. I want to dig into the amendments. What things do we need to fix? I know we want to pass the bill quickly, but the Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act Alliance, the AODA Alliance, watched our committee on Tuesday, and they were concerned.

I'm going to go to Amélie.

One of their concerns is, “Minister Qualtrough tried to defend the Federal Government's choice to enact what they call 'framework legislation' that leaves it to future regulations to sort out all the details.” They went on to say, “What this boils down to is the Government does not want to debate and publicly vote in Parliament on any specifics about the Canada Disability Benefit...”.

What would you recommend? We want to move on it quickly and we want to make sure that it's done properly so that the people who are impacted the most.... What amendments to Bill C-22 would you recommend right now?

[Amélie Duranleau]

That's a very good question.

A co-building exercise is currently taking place and could be continued. Our predecessors told us that a dozen months would be realistic. Certainly, the pandemic has exacerbated inequalities and urgent action is needed. It could be done in a year or so, as long as it gives us enough time to talk to the provinces and territories. We need to make sure that the money will actually get to the individuals and that it will be complementary to what is currently offered.