Human Resources Committee on Nov. 14th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Calderhead and Madam Zarrillo.

Madam Ferreri, you have five minutes.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all of the witnesses for being here. It's Michelle Ferreri, member of Parliament for Peterborough—Kawartha. Thank you for all of your honest testimony and for helping try to achieve two things: that we do this quickly and properly.

I have a question for Mr. Lepofsky from the AODA Alliance.

Before I got here, a headline news article just popped up in my newsfeed from CityNews about MAID, medical assistance in dying, as an alternative to poverty. I'm curious about your thoughts. Do you think this is a growing concern among the disabled community: the alternative use of MAID as a resource?

[David Lepofsky]

I would welcome an opportunity to come back before this committee in its study of medically assisted suicide, because I believe that practice has run amok. It was, I believe, accepted by the Canadian public to deal with people near the end of life in insufferable, untreatable, physical pain, and now it has gone to the lengths of being literally a new response to holes in the social safety net. This is devastating, but the message I would convey to you as parliamentarians is this: Look at how quickly Parliament passed amendments to make medically assisted suicide more quickly—that is to say “dying”—focusing on only people with disabilities.

I call on you to move with even greater speed to make it easier to live with a disability, and that includes not only those under 65 but also those over 65.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

I appreciate that. Thank you very much.

I will turn it over to Mr. Calderhead as well. I also would like your feedback on this headline of MAID as an alternative to poverty.

[Vincent Calderhead]

The number of cases of people saying they cannot live any longer—people with disabilities saying they can no longer stand to live because the social supports they as a person with a disability need are not being provided by governments, which are either indifferent or incapable—is now becoming staggering.

There was a case out of Winnipeg two weeks ago that achieved notoriety. There are many cases. This isn't really the proper forum in which to get into them, but cases in which people are saying the lack of social supports, their poverty, is rendering life intolerable for them now points very directly towards a social justice solution, a human rights solution, which is to say that we ensure that people with disabilities are enjoying the human rights we have agreed to internationally, the human rights obligations we say we're complying with when we go to UN treaty bodies all the time.

Now is the time to say let's lift people out of poverty and, concretely, for this committee to report that an amendment is required to ensure that any benefits provided under the regulations meet the standard of adequacy that the official poverty line has set out, which has to be interpreted in a way that takes into account the needs of people with disabilities. The two are very closely linked.

Your committee is in a position to do something about it, so, as Mr. Lepofsky has said, the devastating MAID solution is no longer one that is taken simply because of indifference on the part of government.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you so much, Mr. Calderhead.

Ms. Bourgeois, I would love your feedback on this as well, if you have any.

[Louise Bourgeois]

I would ask that Ms. Gratton answer the question about medical assistance in dying.

[Danielle Gratton]

I can't speak for everyone, but in our organization, we've never discussed this with our members. So I won't go down that road.

However, Quebec will be introducing a basic income on January 1, 2023. People will receive a certain amount, and although it may not be enough, it will be a relatively high amount and will help those individuals meet their basic needs. It's not perfect and it's only a step, and I believe that the federal government could support this initiative.

Having said that, for us, MAiD isn't on the table at this time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Gratton and Ms. Ferreri.

Now we will have Mr. Kusmierczyk for five minutes to conclude the first hour.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses for coming and bringing really important testimony here today at this committee. Absolutely, we are hearing loud and clear from all of our witnesses about the urgency of making sure we deliver the supports that Canadians with disabilities urgently require. That's something that has been repeated time and again at this committee, and it's something that is guiding our work here.

We also heard very clearly in previous testimony at this committee from witnesses who urged “urgent passage” of Bill C-22 through the House and through this committee. We heard other witnesses say that this needs to move forward “without delay”. There was even one witness who testified and said simply “get 'er done”. That seems to be the sentiment we have heard time and again as well, that there is tremendous urgency.

I want to ask Ms. Bourgeois if she can comment on how vital it is that we get this bill and this legislation passed through committee and passed through the House.

[Louise Bourgeois]

It's important, because we urgently need to lift people with disabilities out of poverty. They mustn't be sidelined. They have got to have enough money to survive. Just like us, they're having trouble making ends meet, and it breaks our hearts to see that happening. It hurts us. It's urgent that we help these individuals.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Ms. Bourgeois.

As a follow-up question, we heard the minister, during her appearance here at the last meeting of HUMA, clearly state that she sees the regulatory process taking about a year to complete. How important was it to hear the minister give a clear timeline and a clear endpoint in terms of the next stage, which would be the regulatory process? This is the process whereby we work together with the disability community to co-create and co-design the Canada disability.... Was it important to hear directly from the minister that the process is going to take about a year, and that this is not going to be an open-ended process?

This is a question for Ms. Bourgeois.

[Danielle Gratton]

Did you understand the question, Ms. Bourgeois?

[Louise Bourgeois]

No.

[Danielle Gratton]

Mr. Kusmierczyk, your question was a little too complex for Ms. Bourgeois. If I understood you correctly, you asked if she found it reassuring that the minister said the regulatory process could take a year.

On the one hand, that may be reassuring. On the other, if the bill doesn't establish a timeframe, as others suggested earlier, it will depend on the regulations.

As Ms. Bourgeois has been saying from the outset, we hope that, in consultation with the provinces, the disability community and the federal government can work together to come up with concrete measures.

Ms. Bourgeois and I have been working on a bill for about two years. We worked with statutory committees that supported the bill and its passage. The meetings were held on a regular basis. So it can be done.

I'm sure that we can find a way to consult the provinces and the individuals concerned to determine the minimum income people with disabilities need to live decently. They are entitled to it.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Gratton.

Thank you, Mr. Kusmierczyk.

That concludes the first hour. We will suspend for a few moments.

Thanks to the witnesses for appearing and giving testimony during the first hour.

We'll suspend for a few minutes while we transition to the second round of witnesses.

Again, witnesses, thank you for appearing and providing testimony to the committee members.

We'll suspend for a couple of minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I call the meeting back to order. Welcome back.

The committee is resuming its study of Bill C-22, an act to reduce poverty and to support the financial security of persons with disabilities by establishing the Canada disability benefit and making a consequential amendment to the Income Tax Act.

To assist the interpreters in their work, I kindly remind all members and the witnesses appearing today to introduce themselves when speaking and to speak slowly. You may choose the official language of your choice to speak in. If there is a loss of translation services, please get my attention by raising your hand in the room or using the “raise hand” icon if you're appearing virtually. I will suspend and it will be corrected. Please address any comments through me, the chair.

I would like to welcome our witnesses to begin the discussion with five minutes of opening remarks. We have Leslie Yee, vice-chair of the Council for Persons with Disabilities; Neil Belanger, chief executive officer of Indigenous Disability Canada; and Peter Zein, chairperson of the Stratford Advisory Committee on Accessibility Issues.

We will start with Ms. Yee for five minutes. You have the floor.

[Leslie Yee, Vice-Chair, Board of Director Member, Council for Persons with Disabilities]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the HUMA committee.

I'm honoured to be here today. My name is Leslie Yee. I am legally blind and I have a guide dog. I'm also representing the Council for Persons with Disabilities in Peterborough, Ontario.

We're very happy to see Bill C-22 moving forward, and we applaud the government for considering a bill that is quoted as being “to reduce poverty and to support the financial security” of persons with a disability. It is a step in the right direction. However, there are a few concerns I would like to address.

For years now, a person with a disability has been living well below the poverty line. Bill C-22 is focused on bringing people out of poverty, and it has the intent of reducing poverty, but not of eliminating it. With today's inflation rates, the cost of living, increased rent and additional expenses, people are falling further and further below what is considered poverty.

If the provincial and federal governments continue to claw back benefits, we will never see an elimination of poverty. Only by eliminating the clawbacks between supports will we start to see poverty eliminated. Only then will we see people living a healthier, safer and happier life.

Twenty-two per cent of Canadians have a disability, and many cannot afford their rent, food or medications. To manage our disabilities, to purchase mobility and technology aids that are needed to navigate our surroundings, and to receive the proper and often expensive medication we need costs an average of 30% of our income.

Regarding clawbacks for persons with disabilities, individuals living on CPP disability earn approximately $1,200 per month. If they take on a part-time job and earn more than $533 per month—$6,400 per year—they are often reassessed and told they are making too much money. These individuals are told that their benefits might be reduced or taken away for working too much. This does not eliminate poverty. Instead, it creates fear and undue stress.

Another concern with Bill C-22 is the elimination of the benefit at age 65. While I understand that the benefit turns into CPP retirement, it is at a further reduced amount. Disabilities do not go away or simply disappear. Individuals with disabilities still need aids or medication and supports. In fact, these are only exacerbated by increased age.

CPD strongly believes the terminology “working age” should be eliminated from this bill. Bill C-22 should also be lifting seniors with disabilities out of poverty.

People with disabilities have the same desires, hopes and expectations as able-bodied citizens. We want to be part of our community and contribute to society by paying taxes, volunteering and supporting one another. Living a healthy and safe life is a human right, not a privilege. No one deserves to live below the poverty line, especially a poverty line that is currently below the cost of living.

I commend the committee for assessing Bill C-22, but respectfully ask that the wording of the bill be looked at carefully. All eligibility criteria, including any restrictions, should be reviewed carefully and determined through the development of the regulations. The wording of the Canada disability benefit act should not be allowed to impose any limitations or create more barriers.

On behalf of the Council for Persons with Disabilities, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to speak with you about Bill C-22. Our organization looks forward to a bill that will lift people out of poverty and create a better life for all persons with disabilities. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Yee.

Now we have Monsieur Belanger for five minutes.

[Neil Belanger, Chief Executive Officer, Indigenous Disability Canada]

I would like to thank the committee for this opportunity to speak briefly today on Bill C-22, the Canada disability benefit, during this eighth anniversary of Indigenous Disability Awareness Month being celebrated across Canada.

My name is Neil Belanger and I'm a member of the Lax Seel Clan in the House of Nikateen of the Gitxsan nation. I am also the chief executive officer of Indigenous Disability Canada and executive director of the British Columbia Aboriginal Network on Disability Society.

Before I begin, I'd like to acknowledge the Esquimalt and Songhees peoples, whose territories I am pleased to live and work on and where I am presenting from today.

Over 1.8 million people identify as being indigenous in Canada. Indigenous people experience a rate of disability higher than that of the general population, at over 30%, equating to approximately 600,000 indigenous people living with a disability in Canada. In addition to higher rates of disability, indigenous people and communities experience higher rates of poverty. In 2016 it was reported by Stats Canada that four out of five communities, or 80% of indigenous communities, had a median income under the poverty line.

Over the past 30 years, our organization has provided a number of direct programs and services to indigenous persons with disabilities residing within indigenous and non-indigenous communities, with the overwhelming majority living in systemic poverty.

Living in systemic poverty restricts indigenous people with disabilities in their ability to be active and included members of their communities. In addition to poverty, indigenous people with disabilities face other barriers, such as anti-indigenous racism; lack of disability and health-related programs and services; lack of safe, affordable and accessible housing; inaccessible communities; gender-based violence; jurisdictional issues; lack of transportation; inequity in employment and education, and the list continues.

The implementation and delivery of the Canada disability benefit would assist indigenous people with disabilities in their ability to begin to address some of these barriers. That being said, additional and expanded programs, services and supports, federally, provincially and territorially, are necessary for all persons with disabilities. Without their implementation, we will never achieve a fully accessible Canada by 2040.

The need for a supplement such as the Canada disability benefit has always existed for persons with disabilities living in poverty. However, the urgency has increased exponentially due to inflation coupled with a national housing crisis.

While we cannot and would not speak for all indigenous people with disabilities in Canada, we know from our work and discussions with our clients that the need for the benefit is now and with no further delays, as they have waited long enough. We can no longer expect persons with disabilities living in poverty to do more with less and survive on the kindness of others, nor can we passively sit by and feign ignorance to the inequality they endure.

It is for these reasons and others that we would urge this committee to fast-track the passing of Bill C-22 and in doing so enable the work on the regulations to begin in partnership with and directed by indigenous and non-indigenous people with disabilities. We are in agreement with the process outlined by the Government of Canada for Bill C-22 and fully expect and are confident that we and other members of the indigenous and non-indigenous disability community will be at the table as partners in all aspects.

In addition to the fast-tracking of the bill, we would recommend the following during the development of the regulations:

One, as noted by others, ensure that the benefit is not a race to the bottom but a mechanism to substantially reduce the poverty experienced by persons with disabilities.

Two, ensure that the benefit takes into consideration the additional expenses and higher costs for necessities of living that persons with disabilities incur.

Three, ensure that the eligibility criteria for the benefit for working-age Canadians with disabilities aged 18 to 64 are as broad as possible.

Further, it is essential that the federal government continues to work with the provinces and territories to ensure that once the Canada disability benefit is implemented, no clawbacks or reductions in federal, provincial or territorial benefits or supplements occur.

As well, a number of other complementary initiatives to the Canada disability benefit should be engaged by the federal, provincial and territorial governments. Some of these include development of an ongoing anti-indigenous racism and disability discrimination awareness initiative; development and implementation of federal, provincial and territorial employment strategies for indigenous people with disabilities; implementation of generous annual earning exemptions across all jurisdictions for persons with disabilities who are able to work; expansion and lessening of restrictions pertaining to the enabling accessibility fund; increased federal, provincial and territorial budget allocations to departments providing resources to disability-related organizations and initiatives; and review and modification of the disability tax credit and registered disability savings plan programs and more.

In closing, I would like to thank the committee for this opportunity to speak today and to again express the urgency of getting this bill passed and then working on the regulation development. The time is now.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Belanger.

Mr. Zein, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Peter Zein, Chairperson, Stratford Advisory Committee on Accessibility Issues]

Thank you for inviting me to speak. I'm going to talk about it a little more personally—what in the past has caused people with disabilities to be where we are. Nothing has really changed.

I'm the chair of the Stratford advisory committee on accessibility issues. We're an advisory committee that recognizes the needs of persons with disabilities in Stratford and makes recommendations to the city council. We have had many discussions about poverty, affordability and accessible housing.

I want to begin by sharing my story, as it is relevant to my views of this bill.

Forty years ago I was at Humber College studying engineer technology—a good future—but after my second year, in the summer, I dove into shallow water, broke my neck and became a quadriplegic for life.

While in rehab, a number of men had begun planning to incorporate subsidized, accessible housing units with Metro Toronto Housing so that they could move out of the rehab centre and into an apartment. Before this, there wasn't any assisted living, wheelchair-accessible housing in Toronto—or anywhere else, for that matter. This was groundbreaking. Because the board majority was over 50% persons with disabilities, it was consumer controlled. In other words, we had the decision-making in terms of what was being done in that building.

I lived on family benefits, which is now called ODSP. It was $900 a month, and the rent subsidy was $200. This left little for gas and groceries, insurance, etc. It's not much different from today.

I returned to school, but as a rehabilitation worker, and I got a job at the Centre for Independent Living. My job was to help persons with disabilities and their families find funding for equipment, housing and government grants, and to communicate their needs to the government.

The ILC is also a consumer-run organization. I had a one-year contract, and I made $20,000 to start. I threw away all my opportunities to stay on the security of government funding, and instead I went it alone. It was only a one-year contract, and after 11 years—it went on and renewed regularly—I had to go on long-term disability due to syringomyelia. The insurance company paid 70% of my long-term disability, plus CPPD, but it would not pay any benefits because there were too many people working at the organization who were at high risk to go on disability. My benefits cost thousands of dollars.

I've had a disability for 40 years. I raised my son by myself, starting when he was a teen. It was hard to make ends meet. I know a lot of persons with disabilities from work, wheelchair sports and committees. In the 1990s, it was the UN Decade of Persons with Disabilities. It was supposed to be a celebrated time. Vancouver put on a world show, and everybody was invited. It was supposed to change the world with regard to disabilities, start providing regular funds and the things we need, and recognize people with disabilities as human beings.

It was 1990 when the Americans with Disabilities Act came in. We thought for sure that Canada was going to come up with one. It didn't happen. As a matter of fact, halfway through the 1990s, the government lost money. It didn't prepare for this. It had no money left over. By 1993 or 1994, it ran out of money, and all the funding was cut. I was the one who was taking the calls and trying to tell people why they were cut. I had to do it, and I couldn't explain, other than the failure of the government. It didn't prioritize people with disabilities. It didn't care.

Now is it different? I don't know. I don't think it's much different. I know friends of mine who have gone to MAID. My best friend went to MAID. He was the first one to go to MAID. I didn't want him to do that. I know a guy who starved himself to death for two years because he couldn't stand living in the conditions: no money, nothing to do and no ability to really enjoy life whatsoever. He passed away, and I know many others who passed away. Then, when we got the one-time $500 payment for COVID, it demonstrated a total lack of understanding of the costs we incur. I get a cheque now, and it sounds good, but the problem is that I have no benefits. The benefits I need are thousands of dollars. Many others are on different conditions. The way to set this up is going to be so difficult. You have to really think about who needs it, and you're going to have to look at very diverse ways, because not everybody's the same.

People on ODSP are different from me. They get the benefits; I don't. Everything's different. Twelve hundred dollars a month is absolutely no way to live.

Bill C-22 is for the “working-age” disabled. I'm not crazy about that. I've advocated for persons with disabilities since I was 22. I'm now 61, and the projection for this bill to come into effect is approximately 2024. I'll be 64, which is one year away from retirement and being cut off from any part of this.

Why do we suddenly stop being disabled at 65? Bill C-22 needs to include those over 65. Our costs are still high, and we have no ability to save for retirement.

I'm in Stratford and I'm very happy here, but we are a rural community. There are higher transportation costs and extremely high housing costs. Very few houses are accessible, if any. There's one supportive housing unit for the physically disabled, and the building condition...is in dire need of repair.

We also have a homelessness problem due to mental health. Many in Stratford have a disability, whether physical or intellectual, or have mental health issues. It will be a challenge to achieve equity. Stratford is expensive. Many rural areas are very expensive. Toronto is expensive, but they all have different expenses and different needs.

I hope Bill C-22 will be very quickly delivered, but it has to be expanded for the age; it has to be equal to the needs of the people, and it has to not leave anybody out. More importantly, it needs to be delivered with input from persons with disabilities.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Zein.

We will now open the floor to questions, beginning with Mr. Aitchison for six minutes, please.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll start first with Ms. Yee.

Did you hear Mr. Lepofsky's testimony earlier in the committee? Were you listening in on that?