Human Resources Committee on Dec. 5th, 2022

[Romy Bowers]

I am accountable for the national housing strategy's delivery, and, as I noted in the response to the Auditor General, I take accountability for using the tools we have to make sure we deliver in solving chronic homelessness in Canada.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Right. I guess I go back to your written words that were in response to the Auditor General. Again, I will read it: “accountability for the achievement of the national housing strategy”. You said that it would be determined by December 2023, so again, what would be the purpose of saying you'll determine a year from now who is accountable if you're saying the buck stops with you? Or are you saying something different?

[Romy Bowers]

It's very clear that CMHC is accountable for the delivery of the national housing strategy. As I noted, solving for the elimination of chronic homelessness is a very complex endeavour. It requires making sure we work very collaboratively, not only with Infrastructure Canada but with other groups that are working to support those who are at risk of homelessness. It's because of this complexity that we need to make sure we have alignment and that we're working together to address the very particular housing needs of this population.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

I have a very quick question.

You testified earlier on in answering someone's question that the CMHC has a lot of data and collects a lot of data, yet you don't know how you are achieving the commitment.

Are you disputing the analysis of the Auditor General? Earlier you testified that you collect a lot of data.

[Romy Bowers]

Mr. Chair, we collect a lot of data when we're accepting applications. We ask proponents to identify the vulnerable groups who will be served by the housing unit.

It sometimes takes a considerable amount of time for those housing units to be constructed and occupied. It is for this reason that we cannot always confirm who the ultimate recipient of the unit is—who is ultimately benefiting from the unit—but we can certainly identify the vulnerable group that was identified in the actual application process.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Gray.

Ms. Martinez Ferrada, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being with us today.

My question is about CMHC's capacity to respond to what the government wants, which is to fund the national housing strategy to ensure that there is affordable housing. But what we're hearing on the ground is that there's work to be done to get there.

One of the reasons is that the community organizations, which are in the best position to provide affordable housing units because they are not in the private rental market, have trouble dealing with CMHC. In fact, the non-profit organizations don't feel they are getting proper support to deal with the administrative burden and endless demands of CMHC, not to mention how long it takes to get a response to the projects they submit.

How are you going to correct this in order to better support non-profit organizations?

[Romy Bowers]

Mr. Chair, for many decades CMHC was not involved in the delivery of affordable housing, and we have lost connections with many institutions in the non-profit sector. We've been rebuilding that capacity over the last five years. We've made significant improvements in our processes to support the non-profit sector more effectively.

Is there more to do? Absolutely there is, and we're committed to doing better in the years to come.

I'd like to turn the mike over to Nadine Leblanc for a few words, just to supplement my response.

[Nadine Leblanc]

I'd like to point out that we have local teams working closely with the non-profits and with some organizations involved in our programs. Our service standards vary, depending on the program. It's true that for the rapid housing initiative, service is much faster and much more accessible to people in these communities, because these programs are 100% funded. For our co‑investment program, it's a little more complex because it is made up partly of contributions and partly loans. When there are loans, we work closely with the provinces and other funding organizations to make sure that the projects are viable. So those take a little longer.

If you would like, we can also talk about the service standards for our clients. My colleagues, who are here by video conference, could answer these questions.

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

In connection with the community organizations, I heard that CMHC had established client services for the non-profit sector in the spring. I believe it was in June. However, the national housing strategy was launched five years ago, and yet it took until very recently for CMHC to introduce measures for non-profit organizations.

In response to what Ms. Bowers said a little earlier, I'd like to talk briefly about CMHC's history. Initially, the government asked CMHC to address affordable housing needs after the Second World War, and that's what it did.

What is CMHC going to do now to ensure not only that there is affordable housing, but very affordable housing? That's not what is currently happening on the ground with the community organizations. I'd like to know what you're going to do now to make housing more affordable, and in particular the housing being made available to non-profit organizations.

[Nadine Leblanc]

I'd like to point out that CMHC has always had local services. Our regional offices provide these services. Needless to say, they have grown over the years as the number of programs we run have increased. It's important for us to deal with the community.

With respect to the 2020‑22 budget and what we are doing now to increase the number of affordable housing units, I'd like to point out that we expanded the rapid housing initiative. We recently announced that there would be $1.5 billion to help people in the greatest need. We will continue to review the strategy and our programs on an ongoing basis, as Ms. Bowers mentioned, to ensure that it reflects economic conditions and the needs of vulnerable people.

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

Working with the provinces and territories can be a challenge when it comes to providing affordable housing. How do you work with them to make sure that that there is better coordination between federal programs and theirs?

Perhaps you can tell us about service standards so that we can understand your work in connection with these programs. I've heard that processing times are very slow. In an inflationary context where the market is highly competitive, and it can take six months to get a response, building costs will have had time to increase and make housing even less affordable.

In short, how do you work with the provinces, and how are you responding to the current market?

If we run out of time, you can send your answers in writing.

[Romy Bowers]

Mr. Chair, I would like to note that creating affordable housing is really tough. I see the work non-profits do. What they have to do is use the federal, provincial and municipal monies, and their own equity, to layer on many layers of funding to create affordable housing. That's what it takes.

I want to pay tribute to the amazing work non-profit organizations are doing. CMHC can do its part by aligning its programs with those of other governments. We've learned a lot in the last five years, and we've seen in programs like the rapid housing initiative how we can apply some of the learning to get money out the door faster.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madam Martinez Ferrada.

Ms. Chabot, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

We are at the halfway point in the period established to achieve its major objectives, which I will not repeat here given the short amount of time available.

You've told us that you understand the Auditor General's concerns, that you agree with her recommendations, and that they are included in your action plan. But many people, think, as we do, that the national housing strategy needs to be reviewed because the data currently available cannot illustrate how the strategy meets the needs of the most vulnerable people. We don't know whether the strategy is meeting its objectives, including in terms of processing time.

The Auditor General also said that it's impossible to know, between Infrastructure Canada and CMHC, who is responsible for what. That's a concern.

What concrete measures are you taking to change things?

[Romy Bowers]

Mr. Chair, as I mentioned, the national housing strategy continues to evolve. It's gone from a $40-billion investment to a $70-billion investment. We've added new programs to address the housing needs of Canadians. There is a built-in process whereby the national housing strategy is reviewed on a periodic basis. CMHC has a group that does evaluations and makes recommendations to our minister on improvements that can be made. That was built into the national housing strategy, so comments and feedback from committees like this are very valuable in terms of continuing to make sure our programs are relevant and serve the needs of Canadians, especially those most in need.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

According to you, which is the lead organization for this strategy?

[Romy Bowers]

CMHC is responsible for delivery of the national housing strategy.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Do you feel that you have met expectations?

[Romy Bowers]

I can give you a sense of some of the targets we are working towards and how we reward the work of our employees.

There are six indicators of success that were established when the national housing strategy was established. The first is the number of households whose housing needs are reduced or eliminated. The NHS target was 540,000 households. Halfway through the program the actual number of households we have helped is 246,000.

The NHS target is to create 160,000 new units of housing. Halfway through the program we have delivered financial commitments to 114,000 units. That's 62% of the target met.

We have made commitments to repair and renew existing social housing. That target for the NHS was 300,000. To date, we have extended funding to 272,000 units. That is 91% achievement halfway through the housing strategy.

We have committed to protect 385,000 units of community housing. Halfway through the strategy we have provided support to 220,000 community housing units. That's a 57% achievement.

We made another commitment to provide housing affordability support to 300,000 households through the Canada housing benefit. To date, we have provided 100,000 households with that benefit.

We have committed at least 25% of the NHS funding to go to meeting the housing needs of women and children. The target was 25%. To date, we have achieved 30%.

According to those measures, we feel we're meeting the original intent of the programs.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Chabot and Ms. Bowers.

I will now go to Ms. Kwan for two and half minutes.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Some of that data is not particularly meaningful if you don't get into the details of the affordability and how it's actually met the need. I think that's the point the Auditor General was raising in this report.

The corporation took the position that it was not directly accountable for the achievement of the strategy's target to reduce chronic homelessness by 50% by the year 2027-2028. Is that still the corporation's position? You can just give us a yes or no.

[Romy Bowers]

There is shared accountability between CMHC and Infrastructure Canada for that target.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Is CMHC accountable? It said it's not, so you are now saying you will take joint responsibility with Infrastructure Canada. Is that what you're saying?

[Romy Bowers]

That's correct. CMHC has funding for the capital cost of housing that is built to address chronic homelessness. Infrastructure is responsible for the Reaching Home program—