Human Resources Committee on Feb. 14th, 2023

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

As part of our commitment to ending chronic homelessness, we are contributing more than $400 million to Quebec under the Rapid Housing Initiative. We have partnered with the Government of Quebec to invest $563 million to create 346 new housing units in the province.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Is it 346 or 346,000 new housing units in Quebec?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

I meant 3,146 new units in the province.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I'm not sure I understand, but I'll go and look at the minutes.

In January, British Columbia launched a $500-million program for housing non-profits to buy units in order to take them off the market. In a context where it is clear that not enough housing is being built to meet current needs, the idea of taking existing units off the market to protect affordability is an interesting one. In Quebec, at least, housing organizations are telling us that this is an interesting measure.

So British Columbia has invested $500 million in this program. Would the federal government consider investing in something like that?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

You highlighted a very important point about the importance of helping non-profits, as well as municipal and provincial governments, get the same amount of capacity to compete with the private sector when it comes to securing property and land with the potential for affordable housing. It's an idea I've heard from non-profit stakeholders who are very concerned about the private sector always getting their hands on property that could potentially be used for affordable housing.

It's a good idea, and I'm happy to discuss it with you further.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Trudel.

Ms. Kwan, you have six minutes.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the minister and officials for being here.

Speaking of slowness, I have many issues. First off, and to set the record straight, the federal Liberal government cancelled the national affordable housing program in 1993. That was succeeded by the Conservatives gutting the dollars for housing. As a result, we lost housing altogether from the federal government. Consequently, we have a housing crisis, and it's been escalating. That's just to be clear.

I want to get very specific about the programs in the national housing initiative. There is the codevelopment fund. We already talked about what a disaster it is in terms of its rollout.

I want to raise this question with the Minister: If you look at the numbers, the distribution of about 100,000 units have gone out across the country. However, there are about 115,000 units that have received funding commitments, but the money has not yet rolled out. Why?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

The national housing coinvestment fund has been an amazing tool to help with affordable housing, and—

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Could I just get a direct answer?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

I'm trying to. You are the one who said that this program has been a failure, and I'm trying to show you that it hasn't. Can I do that, Mr. Chair?

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

No, I'm asking the question—Mr. Chair, if I may—very specifically. Why has the funding that has been committed for projects not been rolled out?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Which funding commitments are you talking about? We have so many programs that flow funding for affordable housing. I would like to answer your question but I—

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

If you were listening to my question, I'm talking about the codevelopment fund. Some 115,000 units have received funding commitments but have not received the funding for the non-profits. They're sitting there, and as we twiddle our thumbs, the cost is going up and those projects will become unviable. Why hasn't the funding flowed?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

No one is twiddling their thumbs. This is a very serious matter. I can show how successful this program has been. Of course there's always more to do, but I'll turn to Ms. Bowers for a more technical answer on the flow of the money.

[Romy Bowers]

Thank you very much for that question.

We're halfway through the rollout of the coinvestment fund, and we have conditionally committed half the funding for the 110,000 units that are referred to here. We provide funding to proponents as the construction proceeds. To this date, the construction is completed on about 27,000 units and all the funding has been disbursed.

For all of the other programs, we provide funding, as the construction proceeds, in the form of many advances. During the period of COVID, there was a slowdown in construction activity, but CMHC is very committed to making sure that, as soon as a project advances or asks for it, the funds are provided. It's funding that's provided not all at once but during a gradual cycle as the building project comes to fruition.

I would just comment that, halfway through the program, we've committed half the funds and have achieved half the targets committed.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I can tell you that I'm talking to non-profit groups, and I'm sure there are other MPs who are talking to non-profit groups, and their projects are ready to roll out. They even have matching funds.

In the case of British Columbia, there is a project in the riding of my colleague Richard Cannings. There's a letter from the Lower Columbia Affordable Housing Society in South Okanagan—West Kootenay. They're ready to go. They got their commitment, but they can't get the funding. Lo and behold, what's happened? The government—CMHC, through to the minister—made a decision that, instead of getting an estimated up to $50,000 to $75,000 per unit, they're now limited to only getting $25,000 per unit. As the cost is escalating, these projects will become unviable.

Various colleagues asking for help with projects were all responded to on February 8 with different responses signed by the minister. I have one letter signed by the minister to my colleague Leah Gazan, regarding the situation in Winnipeg, telling people to go look to the coinvestment fund for funding. The people from the Lower Columbia Affordable Housing Society have been advised by CMHC that the money from the codevelopment fund has been depleted. There is no money to be had.

Back in November of last year, around the same time, I wrote to the minister about the codevelopment fund, asking about the $25,000 limitation—when that kicked in and who made that decision. I got a response on February 8 as well, signed by the minister, talking about everything except the answer to that question.

First off, I would dispute the notion that money is flowing when they're ready, because this project is ready. They're about to lose the funding. They're about to actually lose the project if they don't get the funding. This is the reality. They're ready to roll. The only ones holding them up happen to be CMHC on the codevelopment fund.

On the issue of the $25,000 limitation, who made that decision and when did it come into play?

[Romy Bowers]

I can't comment on the specific project that's been mentioned here, but I'm very happy to take the details and follow up on the particular circumstances of that project.

With respect to the $25,000 limit, I recognize that it is challenging for non-profits to work with lower levels of contribution, but in some ways there has been such a demand for the contribution of funding that we've had to ration it to ensure that the contribution of funding gets to as many projects as possible.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Kwan.

Mr. Aitchison, you have five minutes.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I want to go back to the Auditor General's report, where she reported that neither the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation nor Infrastructure Canada felt that they were really accountable for the achievement of the strategies targeted to reduce chronic homelessness by 50%. No one was really accountable, but it was reported that somebody would be named accountable by the end of the year.

There is no one really quarterbacking what's going on between these two ministries and the multi-billion dollar programs they're supposed to be offering. We've also heard from your own colleagues here, Minister, that the CMHC is often where projects go to die because community groups just can't get any money out of it.

Who is the quarterback? Is it you?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

There's a lot to unpack there, again, so let me try to do my best to answer that question.

The member referred to the Auditor General's report. I want to begin by saying that we came out very clearly thanking the Auditor General for the recommendations, the performance audit. We agree with the findings. We are implementing the recommendations. However, Reaching Home is a very important program that delivers direct supports to the frontline organizations that are serving those experiencing homelessness. What the Auditor General highlighted was the need for more efforts to collect the data and then analyze it and transfer it to—

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Minister, I'm going to cut you off there.

What the Auditor General pointed out was the need for someone to be accountable. We've pointed out that, apparently, we'll have someone accountable by the end of this year, halfway through the national housing strategy.

My question is very simple: Who is accountable?

Ultimately, I assume it's you, sir.

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

I'm happy to answer that question.

Of course I am accountable, but what the member refers to is the Auditor General's report. That report focused on one program, which is Reaching Home. The report was not looking at the CMHC or the broader national housing strategy, so I think the member is kind of mixing and overlapping two different issues.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Thank you. You've claimed accountability. That's great. I think that's excellent, so I'm going to move on. I think it's great that you've accepted accountability for this even though you won't accept that it's a crisis, even though some of your colleagues agree.

For interest's sake, I did look up what a crisis is. It's a time of intense difficulty, trouble or danger. I guarantee you that the people trapped in the tent cities that are growing all across this country would call it a crisis. The number of young people who have given up hope of ever owning a home would call it a crisis. The number of people who simply cannot find a place to rent would call it a crisis.

Minister, what is it? If it's just a challenge and we're going to have a quarterback by the end of the year, coordination of things halfway through this program.... If you don't call this a crisis, what is a crisis?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

I'll tell you, if I may, what the impacts of the federal investments to tackle homelessness are. The member kind of alluded to the Auditor General's report.

The Auditor General's report recommended that we collect data better, that we analyze better. However, the fact of the matter is that those investments are making an impact. Sixty-two thousand people were prevented from joining the ranks of those experiencing homelessness. Thirty-two thousand people were given permanent housing solutions through our federal investments. We're supporting over 3,000 projects run by over 1,000 organizations.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Minister, I'm going to interrupt again to say that I agree with you that it's having an impact. There's no question about it. It is having an impact. The question is this: How are we going to make sure it has enough of an impact—because it's clearly not enough?

In a crisis—in a challenge, as you refer to it—like this, it's an all-hands-on-deck approach. It has to be. It has to be an all-of-government, all-levels-of-government approach.