Human Resources Committee on Feb. 14th, 2022

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I could recite Standing Order 16(2) regarding decorum, but frankly I would hope I wouldn't have to.

This questioning is very rude and the minister is not receiving the opportunity to respond.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Mr. Van Bynen, that is not a point of order. We will resume the questioning.

Conclude, Mrs. Kusie.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you, Chair, for your excellent leadership in this committee.

As I said, Minister, I have a letter here from the Advocacy Centre For The Elderly, which is addressed specifically to you, as well as to the finance minister, whom you just mentioned and with whom you said you are working to resolve this problem that is causing seniors significant duress.

We've recognized today that we don't know when they're going to get the money. We recognize that we're not sure if this money is not going to be taxed back.

Can you assure me, Minister, as well as not only those 90,000 seniors who are suffering, hungry and cold in their homes right now, but all seniors across Canada, that you will work to ensure that this type of error never happens again?

Thank you.

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Mr. Chair, allow me to continue to confirm for the honourable member first and foremost that we moved very quickly with our officials and the Minister of Finance to put forward measures in the financial and economic update to fully compensate seniors who were affected. This work is already under way. This is going to be a one-time, automatic payment to fully compensate the seniors who lost their GIS in 2020.

Secondly, Mr. Chair, to ensure that this doesn't happen again and to fulfill this commitment in my mandate letter, we introduced Bill C-12, which is going to do precisely that. It is going to amend the Old Age Security Act to exclude any income received under the CERB or CRB for the purposes of calculating the amount of GIS and allowances payable.

It is a very simple bill. It is a quick but very significant amendment to the OAS act to ensure that seniors, particularly the most vulnerable, are not impacted this year for the benefits they took last year.

I've had conversations with all parties and with my critics on this. I really hope we can all agree and move quickly to make sure we put this in to ensure that those most vulnerable seniors have the supports they need.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Van Bynen looks warm and fed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mrs. Kusie.

For the next six minutes, we have Mr. Coteau.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you, Minister, for being with us today. We appreciate it.

I got to sit in the Ontario legislature for the last decade. Over the last few years I was really watching what was taking place with seniors in this province and in this country. I often think back and remember when the previous Conservative government raised the old age security from 65 to 67. I often think about how it would have impacted about 100,000 seniors and kept them in poverty. I often think about the government that's here today—your government and our government—and the values it brought forward during the pandemic.

It's really Canadian values to see that adjustment to bring it back to 65 from 67 and then putting in place many different programs during the pandemic—which is perhaps the most challenging time this country has ever gone through since World War II—to help seniors who are struggling.

In my community in Don Valley East, seniors come in all the time and they are struggling. Having a pandemic hit changed everything.

I want to say that it's nice to have a government that is reflective of Canadian values. In fact, 80% or 90% of the money that went to support Canadians during this pandemic came from the federal government directly.

We're here now, two years later. There have been a lot of challenges. What has been the impact of some of these programs when it comes to seniors, not only from an individual perspective, but also from community-based organizations working with municipal and other levels of government?

What have you seen really work well over the last two years when it comes to the programs coming from your ministry?

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Our priority from the very beginning, since 2015, has been to support those most vulnerable. I am proud to be part of a government, one of whose very first actions was to cut taxes for middle-class families and raise them for the wealthiest one per cent. We introduced measures, as you know, to restore the age of eligibility back to 65 from 67, which it was in the Harper years, especially for old age security and the guaranteed income supplement.

We also put forward and enhanced the guaranteed income supplement, which has helped 900,000 low-income single seniors. The measures we put in place have certainly helped 45,000 low-income seniors to come out of poverty.

When you talk about this pandemic, if there is one demographic that has been particularly hard hit, it is our seniors and the most vulnerable seniors. Complementary to directly supporting their health and financial health, we were also able to provide other funding as a result of delivering services and supports directly to them, using the power of organizations on the ground in communities and adding our own capacity, thereby ensuring that local knowledge and skills were harnessed. I am very proud of every volunteer organization and company that has stepped up during this pandemic to support seniors.

As you know, the services that help seniors in their day-to-day lives can help save them that extra cost and the stress, which can affect their health, especially if they have to manage it alone, as you can only imagine.

Therefore, to help seniors and others get essential services and supplies, we invested over half a billion dollars. There was an additional $20 million for the New Horizons for Seniors program's community-based projects, $350 million for charities and not-for-profits, $9 million for United Way Canada, $100 million for food banks and local food organizations, and, of course, millions for the previously funded New Horizons for Seniors program, which was modified so we could pivot quickly to address the needs of those specific individuals.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Minister, I know you have been interrupted a lot today, but I have a minute and a half left. I would just like to ask you about an issue that's really serious to me and I think to all members of this committee, which is the issue of elder abuse.

During the pandemic there has been, obviously, a lot more isolation. Can you share any insight in regard to elder abuse during the pandemic, and what the ministry and partners have done to help mitigate what I can imagine has been its growth during that time period?

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Absolutely. Thank you for raising that extremely important question.

Senior abuse in all its forms is extremely unacceptable. It's an issue that from the very beginning our government has taken extremely seriously.

We're working on initiatives to combat senior abuse, including strengthening the law, creating a national definition, collecting more data and cracking down on seniors fraud. The work is already under way on this issue through the funding of projects, as I mentioned, through the New Horizons for Seniors program, to help raise awareness around senior abuse and fraud.

We have also invested $29.5 million for the digital literacy program to help seniors develop their online skills and to educate them on fraud protection.

Of course, work is also under way with the National Seniors Council, which examines these issues. This is something we take extremely seriously to make sure that seniors are protected in their homes, online and, of course, in public.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Coteau.

Now, for six minutes, go ahead, please, Madame deBellefeuille.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being with us, Minister.

I listened carefully to your statement, although I am surprised that you made it only in English. I thought that ministers were required to make their statements in both official languages. Perhaps I am mistaken. I thought that they did it out of obligation, but perhaps it is simply out of courtesy.

In your statement, you said that you were a nurse. For my part, I am a social worker. I am still an active member of my professional association in Quebec. I spent my career in service to seniors, offering support at home and in nursing homes. I can tell you one thing: it's not the national standards you are working on that will change anything at all for the quality of services offered to seniors in nursing homes in Quebec. I am strongly opposed to the issue of national standards. The solution lies in health transfers, as requested by the premier of Quebec and those of all the provinces.

Even though I would like to discuss the matter and debate it with you, I am so convinced that you are on the wrong track that I will not raise it today with you. I would prefer instead to talk to you about the financial situation of the most vulnerable seniors.

I have had the opportunity to ask questions of you in the House, Minister. Here, I would like you to answer me quickly and precisely, so that I don't have to interrupt you often during your answers.

As you know, 183 000 seniors are no longer receiving their Guaranteed Income Supplement because they accessed the Emergency Response Benefit. In December, you said that these people would get a one-time payment in May.

Can you explain to me clearly and simply why the one-time payment will only be made in May? What are the reasons? How do you explain this?

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Allow me to take a moment to thank you, as a health care worker to a health care worker, for the work you've done in your own community and that you continue to do.

Mr. Chair, and for my honourable colleague, as I mentioned, when the pandemic first hit two years ago, we moved very quickly, as the honourable member knows, to provide that support, whether it was to workers, seniors, students—

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

Minister, I am terribly sorry to interrupt you. It's really not like me to interrupt witnesses, but I asked you a simple question.

Explain to me the reason for which you cannot make the one-time payment sooner, to get it done before the month of May. Explain the reason to me. There is a reason. I know the answer, but I'd like to hear you say it.

Why can't you move up the payment you intend to make in May?

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Let me just say that when I was first appointed to this role, this was the very first thing we worked on. We worked extremely closely with our officials, looked at all options possible. We worked with the Minister of Finance and quickly put a major investment in the financial and economic update to fully compensate these low-income seniors who were affected.

The work is already under way. This is going to be an automatic one-time payment, which will support affected seniors by fully compensating them for the full loss of their GIS. Of course, there are challenges, and we want to get it out as soon as possible, but I—

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

Minister, I am terribly sorry to interrupt you.

I will answer the question myself.

I think that you can't make the one-time payment before May because there are computer bugs. We heard it in other committees. Even the minister of Finance said so. The computer system won't allow an earlier payment to be made.

So, you will confirm that, because of the computer system, you cannot make the one-time payment before the month of May, which will go to seniors who are struggling to pay their rent, groceries and medication.

Can you confirm that for me, yes or no?

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Look, I completely agree with the honourable member that we need to move quickly on this. This is a priority for me, and we are doing everything we can to get it out as soon as possible.

I will turn to my senior officials to give you the challenges that exist and the work we are doing to make sure we can get it out as quickly—

[Cliff C. Groen, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Benefits and Integrated Services Branch, Service Canada, Department of Employment and Social Development]

Yes, thank you very much.

Thank you to the member for asking the question.

The earliest we can make the one-time payment is in the month of May. We are currently working hard to see if it is possible to make the payment sooner.

It is true that there are technical constraints. It must be said that the computer system we use for the Old Age Security program is outdated. This system dates back to...

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

That's perfect. I very much appreciate your answer.

What I understand is that the government is stuck with a big problem right now. The Employment Insurance Act cannot be reformed because of computer problems. At Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, work visa applications can't be processed fast enough and bring in needed foreign workers, again because of computer problems.

Now, you're telling me that because of computer problems and your antiquated computer system, it is impossible to accelerate a single payment to vulnerable seniors whose benefits were unfairly slashed. Very sincerely, as an MP and a social worker for seniors, I find that unacceptable.

Every Canadian who needed a CERB cheque had one sent to them within 10 days, but vulnerable seniors who had their benefits slashed can't get a cheque for $3 500 sent to them before the month of May. Can you explain this to me?

[Cliff C. Groen]

We were indeed able to pay benefits to Canadians very quickly. I was closely involved in the payment of the Emergency Response Benefit, as well as other benefits.

In this case, we want to pay out these benefits as quickly as possible. We're making it a priority, so we're working very hard on it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. DeBellefeuille.

Next is Madam Zarrillo for six minutes, please.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's been an interesting but sad committee meeting today. What we're seeing is that the cracks in our social safety net have really come to light here, and that there's a lack of planning from government year after year and decade after decade.

I guess if we think about the answers we just got right now around the antiquated technical infrastructure—earlier we saw the lack of investment and foresight in social housing—now we're looking at really catastrophic outcomes for the senior population.

I want to speak specifically to the minister about what is not in the mandate letter, which is a plan for seniors, a national strategy for seniors. This is something that the NDP has wanted for a long time. Today has just shown how much we must invest in good planning so that we can protect the most vulnerable when a crisis happens nationally. Elder abuse was talked about today, as were food insecurity, mental health and loneliness of our seniors.

I want to ask the minister about a national plan. We've heard lots of piecemeal issues today, but what about a national strategy for seniors? Where is that, and can we expect to see it very soon?

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

I know this is a topic this committee has also previously looked at. It is something I am taking advice on in order to make sure we are dedicating our resources toward the best results for seniors who need our help the most, the most vulnerable.

This strategy would possibly bring together a range of work that we are already doing for seniors, and we're happy to consider that in due time as we continue to deal with the pressing concerns our seniors are facing during this pandemic.

As the honourable member may know, we have made significant investments in areas of income security, housing, accessibility and caregiving, and this is building on that work. We've also asked the National Seniors Council to provide advice on whether a national seniors strategy would be helpful for strengthening our government's attention to seniors' well-being.

We're going to continue to look at that work and work hard with seniors—and, indeed, with all members of this committee and all stakeholders—to ensure that seniors have a safe, dignified and secure future.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

I want to follow up on the GIS piece. I look forward to seeing a national seniors strategy soon, but I want to follow up on the GIS, because this is really the most pressing issue for many seniors in our country who are now at the point of being left out in the cold.

I want to talk specifically about how quickly that money can get on the ground. What could other MPs, other parties, do collectively over the next couple of weeks to get those payments out to seniors before May or June? What can we do together, collaboratively, to get those payments out ASAP?

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

There are a few things. First, I want to assure the honourable member that we left no stone unturned to support these most vulnerable seniors. We worked extremely quickly with our officials and the Minister of Finance and looked at all options available to find a solution. As you know, in the fall economic update we made a major investment to fully compensate the seniors who were affected.

Of course, that work is under way. This automatic one-time payment will support those seniors by fully compensating them for the full loss of their GIS. Of course, I agree that we need to get the money out as quickly as possible, and that's exactly what we're doing and exactly what our officials are looking at.

I'll turn to Cliff to provide even more clarity on that, but I will say that the honourable member talked about what we can do. That is precisely why we introduced Bill C-12. It is going to ensure that we prevent this from happening again, giving vulnerable seniors the security that their GIS won't be impacted because of the pandemic benefits they took last year.

I really hope we can work alongside all parties. I have been forthcoming and I have engaged with every party. My seniors critic offered them briefings on making sure we can move quickly on this, because it is urgent. Bill C-12 is a simple, quick fix to get this done, and I really hope the honourable members, and indeed all parties, will do just that.

I will turn to Cliff to provide more clarity on the one-time payment.