Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Feb. 6th, 2007

[Anna Maria Silvestri Corriveau]

Of course, asylum seekers are human beings. It is not easy for them to leave their home country. Even if the person is not a refugee, he has left his homeland. Therefore, claimants must be respected. The tribunal, as such, might not be humanitarian, but we are also human beings and we must hear the person's case. We are perfectly impartial and we give the person every opportunity to make his or her case. We make our decisions after hearing the evidence.

Let me speak for myself. If a case is difficult and requires some research, we set the file aside until we get the answer. We do not make decisions lightly. In obvious cases, we can hand down a negative decision from the bench, but if a case requires further thought or research, we take all the time we need to make an impartial decision.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I have no doubt about that, madam.

[Anna Maria Silvestri Corriveau]

Now, you simply want to—

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

With two members, the benefit of the doubt came into play. Currently, this is no longer the case.

[Anna Maria Silvestri Corriveau]

No.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

So, how does the benefit of the doubt come into play?

[Anna Maria Silvestri Corriveau]

If there is an unreasonable error, the claimant can apply to Federal Court. As my colleague Mr. Jobin said, there are other stages. This is our job.

[Michel Jobin]

Mr. Chairman, let me say that the benefit of the doubt still exists, even if there is only one member sitting. If we do not have enough elements to make a clear, positive or negative decision and if we have some doubts about the claimant, one member or two members can grant him the benefit of the doubt.

Let me add that even without the Refugee Appeal Division, claimants can still apply to Federal Court for a judicial review. If a member makes an obvious mistake, the claimant can still ask Federal Court to strike down or to oppose the member's original decision.

Let me take this opportunity to invite you to attend a hearing. I think that the claimant would appreciate the presence of a member of Parliament. If you want to attend, as Ms. Faille seems to have done, you are welcome to come to a hearing. You could then see that hearings can take hours and not just 15 or 20 minutes. The claimant is questioned for several hours, and given all the time he needs to explain his past to the board member.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you.

I'm sorry, I have to cut it off there. It was a five-minute round and you're pretty close to seven minutes.

Mr. Siksay, please, then Mr. Wilson.

That is all the questioners we have. We'll go to consideration of the motions at that point.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Thank you, Chair, but I'll pass on this round.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you.

Did you say you had some questions, Mr. Karygiannis?

Fine, we have plenty of time.

Mr. Wilson.

[Blair Wilson, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the opportunity to speak.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming here today to discuss this issue.

The relevance of today's meeting is quite important. We're dealing with the competency of refugee board judges.

As we talked about earlier, you're the last line before someone is allowed into or expelled from the country, and the power the two of you have is enormous in people's lives. We can't forget that.

The process here is to deal with a number of issues. Two of the important issues are, one, to highlight the drastic shortage we have in citizenship and refugee board judges, a shortage that is causing a major backlog in refugees and new Canadians coming to Canada.

I'm trying to understand through the process of this committee whether the shortage is a direct result of the refusal of the current government to take action to hire or reappoint people such as you, or if this lack of action—

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

You can't go there, Mr. Wilson.

[Blair Wilson, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

I am having a preamble before my question, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Okay, I'll allow the preamble. Go ahead.

[Blair Wilson, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

I haven't asked a question yet.

I would like to think that the lack of action is not due to incompetence. I think the lack of action is due to a precise Conservative agenda to increase the backlog, and the reason they are dragging their feet in appointing members such as you is that they want this backlog to continue.

The process that we're going through right now is to ensure that judges and members such as you are adequately screened. Based on this process today and your eight years of experience, I believe the two of you here at the table have been adequately screened and appropriately determined to have the confidence and the qualifications you have.

At the last sitting of the committee it was determined that four candidates failed to go through the screening process, which you previously discussed. In fact, one was a failed Conservative candidate who circumvented the process and was appointed by the Conservatives to the position, without going through the screening process you have.

I have a couple of questions, Mr. Chair. Thank you.

Could you please highlight to the committee what activities you have done with respect to community outreach and the community leaders you have spoken with to determine some of the needs and issues of the various ethnic communities that we have here in Canada?

[Anna Maria Silvestri Corriveau]

Formerly, I was very involved in community activities.

I do not understand exactly what you mean by "community activities". In my opinion, it means my social involvement in various organizations, like those that help underprivileged people, such as persons injured while at work or persons on welfare.

I have done a great deal of volunteer work with various organizations that help Italian and Greek immigrants. I have often given legal counselling to these people. I have done a great deal of court accompaniment. I have represented many injured workers. I have sat on various boards that deal with elderly persons and women. There are various organizations that help women of Italian origin, and young drop-outs to find out why they are leaving school: is it because of their cultural background or because of family pressure?

I was very active in these organizations. Now, I have reduced my activities because I have other family responsibilities that leave me very little time. However, I am still available whenever I have an opportunity to help. Nevertheless, I have greatly reduced my social involvement.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Eight seconds.... I don't imagine you want to go there, Mr. Wilson, do you?

Mr. Karygiannis.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Good morning, and thank you for coming.

I want to pick up where my colleague Mr. Wilson left off. I think what he was saying is community outreach...this is to the communities that you are serving or your file is in, be it the Algerian community.... Have you done any community outreach to those particular communities that your work specifically is detailed to?

[Michel Jobin]

No, Mr. Chairman. I did not get in touch with people from the Algerian community in Montreal. My information was essentially gathered from reading about Algeria, in various texts and magazines, like Jeune Afrique, where the Algerian issue is regularly discussed. However, you understand that I would be making a mistake if tomorrow morning I approached an individual to ask him for his opinion on the political situation in his country, because he might not be neutral vis-à-vis the situation in his country.

Therefore, in general, we have—

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I'm not trying to badger you, sir, and certainly in order to save time.... We can ramble on all you want.

If you're making decisions on a particular country, be it Algiers, be it Greece, be it Italy, I think community outreach to community associations, to community leaders, should be done to get first-hand information. What you read in the press sometimes is distorted. I'm not sure if Somalia is part and parcel of your file, but if it is, have you done any community outreach to the Somalis in regard to Somalilanders? Is Somalia in your file?

[Michel Jobin]

No.

Mr. Chairman, the office functions without any direct contact with members of the communities that we deal with. I think that we must stay away from heated debates about any given country. It is preferable to get our information from academic sources or—

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Jobin, I didn't say debate. I said specifically community outreach to community elders, and I'm sure the translation is not lacking here.

Is Somalia part of your file?

[Michel Jobin]

No. Somalia is not among the countries for which I have been responsible for the past eight years.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Is Egypt part of your file?