Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Feb. 6th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

No, no.

Order, please. The chair will not allow that.

I'm going to Mr. Alghabra.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm really embarrassed by the theatre we're witnessing here today. I'm genuinely and sincerely trying to understand from your experience what we can learn as parliamentarians and what part of the qualifications enabled you to get reappointed.

Let me try to ask another question.

In your eight years of experience, has there been...? I'm sure there has been. Can you share with the committee one experience where you have been able to overcome or enhance the system or deal with a situation that was quite complicated and found a way to make it simpler? From your eight years of experience, can you share with us some experience of value that this committee can learn from and benefit from?

[Anna Maria Silvestri Corriveau]

The only problems that I as a decision-maker may rule upon are legal ones. I have nothing to do with administrative issues. If there are any problems related to a case, lawyers are prepared to provide us with advice. I am there as a decision-maker not an administrator. So, I am not able to answer that question.

I will give my colleague the floor. He might like to add something.

[Michel Jobin]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Over the past eight years, as members of the board, we noted that there were delays between the time an individual arrived and remitted the form containing their personal information, on the one hand, and the time this individual was heard by a member, on the other hand. Things have changed over time. We are trying, with good reason, to ensure that the delay is as short as possible. It is not my job to define this role, but I agree, with regard to the process for hearing refugee claimants, that things should proceed expeditiously.

Over the years, I have noted that the length of the waiting period fluctuated. At present, it has been significantly reduced. Sometimes, more refugee claimants arrive in Canada due to the international situation. At other times, things are calmer, and there are fewer arrivals. In light of these variations, the waiting period can be shorter or longer. I think that everybody would agree that refugee claims should be processed as quickly as possible.

Each month, we are responsible for hearing a specific number of claims, and we do the best we can. Every day, we listen to what refugee claimants tell us. In each case, we apply the different sections of the legislation and the relevant case law.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

You've gone about 15 minutes, but an awful lot of time was taken out of there, so I'm going to allow another question.

I know, Mr. Siksay, you had your hand up, but an awful lot of Mr. Alghabra's time has been taken by points of order and what have you. I think it's only fair that we give him another question.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

I appreciate it, Mr. Chair.

I know a lot of the questions we ask will entail you offering your opinions. But if we really don't benefit from your opinions that are shaped by your experience, I don't know who else we should ask.

I want to follow up with Mr. Jobin on his comment about the length of time it takes.

In your experience, what do you think is the main reason for that length of time, from the time the applicant files a claim until his or her case is heard before you?

[Michel Jobin]

The delays occur for various reasons. Some individuals file their asylum claim when they arrive at the point of entry, either at an airport or a border crossing. Sometimes people file it several weeks or months later. In these cases, the individuals have already been here for some time when they file their claim.

Claimants must obtain certain documentation, namely pieces of identification or documents related to the evidence they intend to file. If they have to obtain this evidence from their country of origin, it may take a few weeks or even months before they receive it.

When the file is ready to be heard, the registrar puts it on the schedule. The applicant must, of course, find a lawyer. In some cases, legal aid certificates are required.

Several months may have elapsed between the time that the file is begun and the time that the individual is heard by a commissioner, in Montreal, Toronto, Calgary, Vancouver or in any other city where the hearings are held.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Mr. Alghabra.

Madam Faille, please.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you.

I would like to welcome you. You are from the Montreal office, a place that I visit quite frequently. Often, when I have a coffee just outside this office, I witness the crying and the many dramas that occur, but happy moments as well. I am pleased to welcome both of you.

Ms. Corriveau, you appear to be very comfortable answering our questions, and that is to your credit. Before we invited you, I listened to some cassettes containing your decisions as well as those of Mr. Jobin. Your good grasp of the field is, I believe, related to your experience, to the fact that you have worked at the college level and have sat on tribunals. In addition, you are called upon to meet people whose situation is not the best. When you hear refugees, you really have to show empathy and intercultural understanding.

This is the time to give you some kudos. Please accept them. The fact that you are happy doing your job probably explains why you are so very comfortable talking to us about it. In addition, you have been doing this work for several years, since 1996, according to my information.

Of course, I'm very interested in the refugee file. When the new Immigration Act came into effect and the implementation of the Appeal Division was delayed, your decisions did not change. The fact that the system was working differently did not turn you into a poor decision maker. Once again, this is to your credit.

My questions are more for Mr. Jobin. I am really finding it very interesting to examine these two appointments. Indeed, your skill sets are very different and yet you have both become members of the commission. In my opinion, we need to improve and look for certain skills in order to make the transition and subsequent integration easier. The people accepted by Ms. Corriveau have integrated into the community. I listened to some wonderful testimonies. However, the reaction with respect to Mr. Jobin was different and I am sorry about that.

I tried to understand why. It would appear that the IRB has been operating on a geographical region basis for several years. At the outset, you told us that you were responsible for North Africa and the Middle East. We know that things are not easy in this part of the world. It must be difficult to make decisions on these cases.

As for the skills required of the candidates, I compared the situation of a member of the commission to that of a PRRA officer. For the member of a commission, the candidate must have some prior expertise in administrative tribunals. Your CV does not show such experience, but perhaps you could tell us whether or not you have already sat on another tribunal.

[Michel Jobin]

The answer is no. As I told you, I am a lawyer by training. I worked at the Department of Justice and the Department of Education. Before I was appointed to the Immigration and Refugee Board, I was working in the area of administrative law.

I also worked at a hospital in Quebec City, in the human resources sector. I have experience in the application of collective agreements. In my CV, which you have, you can see that before working in the human resources field, I had worked at the same hospital centre, but as a student.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

As an aside, I would be tempted to say that we need you in human resources in order to recruit staff in the hospital centres. Moreover, you have been a member of the commission for several years, since 1997. You rendered your first decision in 1997.

In your opinion, why should we renew the mandate of members of the commission who have been doing this work for several years?

[Michel Jobin]

I would like to make the following correction: I was appointed in September of 1998.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

All right.

[Michel Jobin]

There is the initial training. The first hearings took place a little later on. Over the years, our line supervisors observe us, read our decisions, listen to us, make recommendations and suggest how we could improve certain skills.

I believe that you have the competency standards for a member. There are nine competency standards that we need to acquire and improve over the years, namely, communication, conceptual thinking, decision-making, information seeking, judgment and analytical thinking, organizational skills, results orientation, self-control and cultural competence. After spending a few months or years within the board, we are then assessed based on these competency standards.

At the time, our supervisors assessed each of the members. I am therefore not the only one who has been assessed; nor is my colleague. All of the members are assessed by the regional coordinators, and it is this assessment that is used to determine whether or not our mandate should be renewed.

In order to be reappointed, you have to have good scores for each of the nine competency standards.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Okay.

[Michel Jobin]

I was appointed for a three-year period the first time; I then obtained a five-year term and, recently, a two-year term. In total, that is 10 years.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

All right.

May I ask another question?

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

You have only a couple of seconds left, but I'll allow one more question.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

You are expected, as members, to be able to draw reasonable conclusions. You are, I would imagine, a specialist in the Middle East and North Africa.

Could you summarize the type of activities that you engage in or the type of efforts you have made over the past few years to better understand the traditions of the community, as well as the impact of the events of the year 2000?

I consulted, as I said earlier, your decisions. However, ever since there has been only one member, the acceptance rate has fallen dramatically. We are therefore trying to understand why this rate has dropped off so much, whereas in the case of Ms. Corriveau, the acceptance rate has been maintained.

[Michel Jobin]

Mr. Chairman, in order to answer this question, which is quite direct, I must say that we regularly receive training on the documentary evidence of each of these countries. In a few weeks, we will be beginning training on Mexico, for example.

Over the years, over the months, I have read extensively on the Middle East, and more specifically on Algeria, because this was the country that I heard talked about the most. I must tell you that when I enter a hearing room in the morning, after having spent a great deal of time preparing my file, each case is treated individually. What I may have heard or what I may have decided in the past is set aside and I start from zero every morning, every afternoon, with a new file.

I am not aware of the recent statistics that the member has just cited. As far as I'm concerned, if you're telling me that there have been more negative findings since the legislation was changed, I would have nothing to say on the matter. All that I can tell you is that every morning, every day when I prepare a file, it is examined as broadly as possible. I take notes. I ask the asylum seeker or his family questions. This is how I tackle each of the files. I would not want the member to think that, for a certain time, I have been viewing the situation in a more negative or positive fashion. As far as I'm concerned, when the file has been completed, it's over. I then look at the second file, and that is how I always tackle my work, with open-mindedness.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Mr. Jobin.

I will now go to Mr. Siksay.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank both Monsieur Jobin and Madame Silvestri Corriveau for being here this morning. I'm sure you have very busy schedules, and taking a day to be in Ottawa probably complicates your life.

I also want to thank you for taking on this very difficult job on behalf of Canadians. All of us who work in the area of immigration and refugee issues know how difficult the cases that you hear are, and frankly just how emotionally difficult it is to do your job. I want to thank you for the work that you do on behalf of all of us, because I realize it's not the easiest task to be assigned in our society.

Monsieur Jobin, I'm glad you raised the issue of the performance appraisal program because that is what I wanted to ask both of you about. You mentioned that you had gone through this process, I gather more than once, as an appointee and a reappointee.

Madam Corriveau, have you gone through the performance appraisal process as well?

[Anna Maria Silvestri Corriveau]

Yes, of course. I was appointed at the same time as my colleague Michel Jobin. We were appointed at the same time. At this time, every year, we are assessed. At the end of our term, there is a post-term evaluation. That is the way it has always worked and it continues to do so. Once our mandate has been renewed, there has always been a post-term assessment.

Was that your question, namely, whether or not we were evaluated?

Yes, every year, we are evaluated, we have to go through an assessment.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Right.

Monsieur Jobin, you mentioned that specific issues are raised, that you're judged on all of these various categories, and that if there is a particular problem.... I'm not asking what the problem is or what specific issues may have been raised with either of you over the years. But just on the process, if something is identified, about which it is believed you require more work or improvement, can you tell me what the process is for dealing with this with the members of the board?

[Michel Jobin]

From time to time training is provided to members who wish to improve one aspect of their work, such as information seeking. We are taught how to use research tools such as the Internet. We have received training on research using computer systems, on how to find information on the Internet research sites, on the way to use the various tools at our research centre in Montreal. We are told about certain documents. We are told when a document is about to be released on a given country. So we are strongly encouraged to keep up-to-date on the overall economic, political and social situation of the countries, something that we do on a regular basis as much as we can.

For each of the countries that we need to know, there is a relatively large information binder which is available to the claimants, the members and the officers working with them. So we have to be aware of all of this evidence and kept abreast of all the information that the various groups publish regularly throughout the world.