Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 19th, 2007

[Marlene Jennings]

I never had any reason to doubt my citizenship, not even when I learned in school how our system of government worked, who is a Canadian citizen and who isn't. When I studied law at UQAM, I even took a course on immigration and citizenship. But I never had any doubts about my own citizenship.

Today, there are members of my family who obtained U.S. citizenship and are afraid they are going to find out that they have lost their Canadian citizenship. They got the certificate Ms. Forrest referred to.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

The bottom line is that based on the testimony we have heard in the last few weeks in committee and in our offices, people had absolutely no idea their citizenship was in jeopardy.

[Marlene Jennings]

Exactly.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

I'm going to ask Mr. Gravel to continue.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I would like to make a comment.

I'm a new member of the committee and I feel that what we are currently experiencing is absolutely absurd. It is almost unspeakable. I am thinking of cases like Mr. Teichroeb's. I find it dreadful. I do not understand how the act prevails even if it is obsolete and completely archaic, nor that we enforce it blindly, without taking into account the human reality that is hidden behind all that.

I do not know how much this entire process has cost Mr. Teichroeb. He lost his job and his house. We should reimburse this man, and do something for all those who find themselves in the same situation. It is unbelievable to realize that the act is like the word of God and that we kneel down before it. I think that legislation is there to be at the service of humans, and not the other way around. That is the way things should work.

Since becoming a member of the committee, I have listened to the testimony and it shocks me to see that in Canada, laws are enforced so blindly. Not all people in your situation are being given their citizenship.

How much is this costing people and the government, in total? It seems to me that we could solve this problem so easily.

[Don Chapman]

Joe Volpe, when he was Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, came to me and said, “My mother was stripped of her Canadian identity under this same law.” He was Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; it was his mother.

You're right, the entire purpose of a government is to protect their citizens and to make life better for their citizens. I fully agree.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

I want to thank you, Ms. Jennings, for appearing before the committee. I realize you have to leave a little bit early, so thank you for your appearance here today.

Have you finished your answer, Mr. Chapman?

[Don Chapman]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you.

Mr. Siksay, please.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank all of you for appearing today, Mr. Teichroeb in particular, because I suspect this isn't the kind of thing you do very often, and I appreciate your coming today to do that. I know how hard it is, especially with the reason given that somehow a relative of yours was born out of wedlock and that that somehow affects your status. Talk about archaic reasons for making such a terrible judgment on somebody today. We need to fix this, and quickly, given especially the terrible consequences this has had for you in particular.

Mr. Chapman, I appreciate that you've given us a very specific proposal to look at, and I hope we can get that in writing. We do need to discuss it. As you had agreed, it merits some discussion and fine-tuning.

One of the things you talked about in that suggestion was people who could prove a substantive connection to Canada. How would you understand that as being defined or working out in the law?

[Don Chapman]

Actually, I couldn't be the authority for that.

We have somebody right behind me who might be able to answer that better. That is Mark Davidson, and maybe you people.

I don't know. I'm not a person who would know the definition of that. Personally, I'm the guy who does it on a gut feeling. Gail Forrest might have spent a lot of her life outside of Canada, but I can certainly see a Canadian when I....

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Given that, it strikes me that the proposals are pretty complex proposals in their own right. Is there an even simpler solution to dealing with this?

[Don Chapman]

I don't know. Again, I'm not a lawyer.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Do we need to talk about some kind of citizenship amnesty that establishes very basic criteria for Canadian citizenship--

[Don Chapman]

That might be the answer. Again, this is something on which all the parties have to get together. Forget about being in a party first; say we are Canadians first, and fix this thing.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

It worries me, because we hear constantly that people get wrong information from the people who are interpreting or administering the law. I want to make sure we don't add to that circumstance by the fix we're trying to arrange. Given the number of different people and different circumstances that we've heard about, I'm beginning to wonder. If we try to address each of those situations with a particular revision of the current law, we may end up with something even more complex than what we started with. Shouldn't we be trying to find the absolutely simplest solution to doing what we intend to do?

I look forward to discussing that further, because I think it is very important.

Ms. Forrest, you didn't get to the end of your story. I'm not clear about your Canadian citizenship status. You said you had the passport in 2005, and that is the part of the story we missed when you got cut off.

Could you tell us where that's at now and what your exact status is with regard to your Canadian citizenship?

[Gail E. Forrest]

First of all, as I mentioned, I was born in Canada, and I'm a daughter of a World War II war bride--

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

I understand the background. I'm just wondering where it is now, how you got that, and what you understand your citizenship status to be now.

[Gail E. Forrest]

As far as I understand, I am not a Canadian citizen. I thought Bill S-2 had passed, and I had a copy of that. I went to a local MP's office and filled out a passport form. I showed them the Bill S-2 form and asked if I was a Canadian citizen now and could I apply for a passport. They said yes. The woman I was speaking with said she was also a lost Canadian and was glad to know she was no longer in that category. She called the passport office and spoke to someone in Vancouver and made the arrangements, because I was in Prince George at the time. I went down to Vancouver and handed in my papers and received a Canadian passport, which is stamped “Canadian citizen”. But I don't believe I'm a Canadian citizen, because when I call—and I have tried many times to submit forms—I am told either, yes, you were born in this country, so you are a Canadian citizen, or, no, you are not a Canadian citizen and you don't qualify, as the law stands right now.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

So it's just from your conversations with people over the telephone about what your citizenship status might be that leads to the question. You've got the document.

[Gail E. Forrest]

Yes.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

You went through the process and you've got that document that shows you're a Canadian.

[Gail E. Forrest]

But I don't have a certificate of citizenship.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Right. Have you ever applied for proof of--

[Gail E. Forrest]

Yes, I did try.