Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 19th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Mr. Kish.

Mr. Allard, if you don't have any comments, we will go to our first committee member.

Mr. Telegdi.

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

I'm going to be very quick, make a couple of points, and then pass it over to Mr. St. Amand.

The Citizenship Act we have is a real disgrace. Instead of making Canadians feel good about being Canadian, instead of being inclusive, it's used as a weapon.

With regard to the bureaucratic terrorist analogy you put in your paper, I couldn't agree with you more. Obviously this act is in desperate need of a rewrite. The previous committee had a number of unanimous reports where all committee members agreed, and I really hope we get back there.

We're now talking about how to honour the last surviving First World War veterans. I think one of the ways we can honour all veterans is to recognize the birthright of their children. We really have to get onto this. We really have to make sure we have a Citizenship Act that we as a nation can be proud of, one that's inclusive and that reflects the realities of the time.

That's all I'm going to say.

Mr. St. Amand has something as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Will the committee agree to go with five minutes to ensure that everyone gets a chance to get a question in? Not everyone got in on the first round.

So maybe five minutes or so...?

Mr. St. Amand.

[Lloyd St. Amand, Liberal, Brant, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank each presenter for their persuasive, compelling presentations--different styles, which is typical for human beings in communicating, but each of you very persuasive, very compelling. Thank you for presenting and sharing with us your particular stories or situations.

To Ms. Vermeersch, you described in very poignant fashion the type of citizens your parents were. With your dad serving the country, your mom doing charitable work, they were just the type of outstanding citizens we want and need here in Canada. You also indicated that your dealings with your member of Parliament, Diane Finley, were met with various roadblocks, if I can put it that way.

What was the psychological and emotional effect on you, Ms. Vermeersch, when you first found out--in 2003, as I understand it--that in fact you had lost your Canadian citizenship? How did that strike you, or how did that resonate with you?

[Marion Vermeersch]

It felt like the rug was pulled out from underneath my life.

I think you take your citizenship for granted until you're all of a sudden told you don't have it. It's just part of who you are, of living here, of your life. It's just there. Underneath you expect a solid foundation in the country where you live and work and contribute.

So it was just a shock. I couldn't believe it. I went through a lot of different emotions. I felt ashamed of Canada. I feel like a Canadian, and I was ashamed that Canada would be doing this to its citizens.

In terms of the effect, I haven't had the great difficulties that Mr. Teichroeb and others have had. I've been very fortunate. I've lived my entire life here, and I've had a good one.

[Lloyd St. Amand, Liberal, Brant, ON]

You have clearly expended a significant amount of time and energy, and resources I dare say, to reclaim or to recover what is your absolute right. Can you quantify the time and energy you've devoted to this cause? Can you calculate for us what your own contribution has been?

[Marion Vermeersch]

It has certainly been more intense over the last couple of years. I was contacting other people, or learning of other people, through the wonderful Internet, realizing that people had different situations but were all similar: they had all lost citizenship or were denied it. I found I was learning more. I made several trips down to that office in Hamilton as I located various documents. I would go down and say, surely this can't be right, surely I'm a citizen. But it was all to no avail. It was very frustrating.

I'm just appalled at the confusing information from the offices. When you go to an MP's office, you expect that they would be the experts on this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. St. Amand.

Madame Faille.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

I would like to thank all the witnesses for coming today to tell us about their experiences.

Ms. Vermeersch, I think that you managed to quickly sum up the state in which people find themselves when they discover that they are not Canadian citizens or when they find themselves in a situation where they wonder if this is the case. In the past, people have had to fight to keep their citizenship which, in certain cases, has given rise to costs of approximately $50,000 to $60,000, and that is for legal fees only. We are not counting what it might have cost the government to try and solve the problem.

As members of the committee, we care deeply about this situation. I would like to personally thank you for having travelled so far to appear before the committee. I commend you for that. In fact, very few people do so.

Moreover, I have the opportunity to visit with many veterans. The Sainte-Anne-de- Bellevue veterans' hospital is in the riding next to mine, that is to say in Vaudreuil-Soulanges. There's also the Manoir Cavagnal and the Royal Canadian Legion in Hudson. These are groups and people that I see regularly. I became their friend because of the work I'm doing in the area of citizenship and immigration. I worked on the war brides issue. There are several in my riding.

I also had the opportunity to study the issue of the citizenship of these veterans' children. I'm very well aware of the problems we are discussing and I find the situation appalling, given your dedication and your efforts to protect Canada abroad.

I would also like to emphasize the presence of my colleague, Réal Ménard, who is the Justice critic for the Bloc Québécois. He was the critic for Citizenship and Immigration and worked on this bill in the past.

In our opinion, citizenship is a right. The problem affecting people in the 1947 to 1977 period is much more significant than some might think. In Quebec, there are economic repercussions. Several truck drivers have discovered these days that they can no longer travel to the United States. Not every business is in a position to offer routes that are limited to Canada alone. As a result, several people have lost their jobs in this industry.

There is also the case of the individual who discovered at Pierre-Elliott-Trudeau airport that he no longer had his citizenship. He had to be escorted by security, whereas throughout his life he had simply believed that he was a Canadian citizen. I would like to be able to say that we are in a position to find a quick solution to these problems. I think that solutions have been proposed on an individual basis.

Ms. Francis was mentioning that there are several classes of citizens. I find that an appalling phenomenon. The fact that Judge Martineau's decision is being appealed makes no sense. I am proud to say that Judge Martineau comes from Quebec. He is probably sensitive to the issue.

In the Martineau decision, the issue of the continuum is important. The people who were here before 1947 were British subjects. When the act came into effect in 1947, they became Canadian citizens. In 1977, this aspect of the spirit of the law should have predominated. I think that at this point, we should modernize the act in order to find a solution to these problematic situations once and for all, because of the costs engendered, but also because of the absurdity that they represent quite simply. The continuum must prevail.

I don't know if you have any comments to add to that. For my part, I do not have any particular questions to ask.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

We're at four and a half minutes, so if we're going to allow for a reply, you'll have to take that into consideration.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

As far as the situation of the veterans in Quebec is concerned, are people rallying?

[Pierre Allard, Director, Service Bureau, Dominion Command, Royal Canadian Legion]

As far as the situation of Quebec veterans is concerned, I agree entirely with you in saying that citizenship is a continuum. As you probably noted in our presentation, we talk about the birth of a nation, in 1917, as we are celebrating the 90th anniversary of Vimy. In my opinion, stating that Canadian citizenship saw the light of day in 1947 is truly an absurdity. We do not understand how Judge Martineau's decision can be challenged.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Okay. I have three more people who wish to make comments. We have Mr. Siksay, Mr. Wilson, and Mr. Devolin.

Mr. Siksay.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you all for appearing today.

Ms. Vermeersch, you mentioned you had information saying that your mum and your brother and you were automatically citizens when you arrived in Canada. Is that documentation that was provided directly to your family or to your mother?

[Marion Vermeersch]

It was a pamphlet that was sent out along with a letter to my mother, giving her instructions for boarding and everything. It was a pamphlet prepared by the Department of National Defence.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Would you mind providing a copy of that to the committee? It might be very interesting to see that.

When the minister was here, she mentioned she had 450 cases on her desk of individuals who had been caught in these kinds of problems. Is your case one of those, that you know of?

[Marion Vermeersch]

No.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

So you've applied for permanent residence?

[Marion Vermeersch]

I have a permanent resident card, yes.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

So you've got that already. And I guess you're waiting for the time now until you can apply to be a Canadian citizen. Is that your plan?

[Marion Vermeersch]

I don't believe this is something that any of us should have to do on an individual basis. I don't believe it should be a politician or a bureaucrat who says “Yes, I'll revoke your citizenship” or “Yes, I will grant it”. I think it should be more broad.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Thank you. I appreciate that as well.

Professor Francis, it's good to hear from you again.

When you appeared before the committee when we were doing our tour in Vancouver in the last Parliament, I think your remarks actually hit a very strong chord with the committee. I've often heard Mr. Telegdi actually quote you. Others of us have done that in committee around the issue of two classes of Canadian citizenship, so I appreciate that you've reiterated that so clearly again today for us, because I think it's a very important point.

I appreciate you also raising the confusion you went through listening to the debate, because actually I found myself today--I don't know why today and why I haven't done this other times--going through my own family members and thinking about the ones who had connections overseas and offshore and whether their citizenship is in question as well. So I think it is really instructive that when we hear these issues, we all start doing that, and it raises that question and sort of chills our confidence in the legislation and in the meaning of Canadian citizenship.

We have to address that, because we can't afford to let those kinds of questions linger, and we can't afford, as we heard from witnesses earlier, to see people who are afraid to check into it because they don't want to know the answer or they're afraid of the answer. That's ultimately not helpful for us as a country.

I guess I'm just making comments at this moment.

I appreciate the Legion's report and the strength of the language you used. Talking about bureaucratic trivialization of citizenship I think is a really important comment on the importance of citizenship to people. I'm wondering if you folks could provide copies of the resolutions that were passed by the Legion at its convention, or maybe in its executive group, because they might be helpful for us as well.

Your comment about bureaucratic trivialization reminded me of General Dallaire's comment about bureaucratic terrorism when it came to this very same issue. I think the strong language is really an indication of how important, at a very basic level, this is to people and how we have to find a permanent and lasting and quick solution to this.

Thank you very much for appearing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you.

Ms. Francis.

[Dr. June Francis]

I will be brief.

I just wanted to say, as an organization that represents immigrants and refugees, and as an immigrant myself, the fact that Canada could treat people like this, who were born here, who fought for Canada, makes us as immigrants very fearful.

We are so appalled that these most obvious cases are being dealt with in this way and not expeditiously. We're looking on and thinking that this should not have taken the cost. As immigrants, we are inherently insecure anyway, so this kind of thing makes us extraordinarily insecure.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Ms. Francis.

I don't know if Mr. Devolin is ready. I can go to Mr. Wilson first, if you want.

Mr. Wilson, are you ready?