Evidence of meeting #44 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was born.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Don Chapman  Lost Canadians Organization
Wendy Adams  As an Individual
Charles Bosdet  As an Individual
Melynda Jarratt  Historian, Canadian War Brides
William Smith  As an Individual
Christopher Veeman  As an Individual
Barry Edmonston  Professor, Department of Sociology, University of Victoria, As an Individual
Donald Galloway  Professor of Law, University of Victoria, As an Individual
Jason Gratl  President, B.C. Civil Liberties Association
Christina Godlewska  Articled Student, B.C. Civil Liberties Association

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, everyone. Thank you so much for coming today.

Many of you, and previous witnesses, continue to put a human face on what I would call a tragedy. It's extremely important that we hear these stories, learn from your experiences, and that we work together on hopefully fixing this problem. I was speaking earlier with Ms. Jarratt.

Unfortunately, you have had to continually struggle with this dilemma. You are doing it on behalf of all Canadians. Many Canadians are not aware of this problem. It might seem distant to them, but the reality is that it could touch upon any of us. You're helping us to navigate through this problem with this leadership, and we will find a way to resolve it.

I'm not sure who would want to answer this. The minister and officials were here, and they tried to give us the impression that the problem is not that big. They gave us a number of about 450 individuals who have been affected by this flaw in the legislation. If that's the case, you've probably heard from about 10% of these individuals. Can any of you tell us...?

Go ahead, Mr. Bosdet.

11:40 a.m.

As an Individual

Charles Bosdet

I heard that, and I heard how she qualified that remark every time. It nevertheless leaves a misleading impression.

All I would say to the members of this committee, or anybody, is that if my experience is any indication, I can pick half a dozen people at random who are now wondering about their citizenship. I didn't approach these people. I didn't know the members of the community who all of a sudden are wondering about it. To my knowledge, not one of them has contacted CIC. And they have said they absolutely don't want to for fear of what might happen.

I would suggest that the minister doesn't need to leave her armchair. Take a look at that number of 450. Think about the nature of the problem and how people would react to it. Think about the population of 30-odd million people. That ought to put 450 into perspective. I have no doubt that they only got maybe 450 calls to the CIC call centre. Who would want to make that call?

11:40 a.m.

Historian, Canadian War Brides

Melynda Jarratt

I can add to that.

On Friday afternoon I personally received calls from two people I'd never heard from before. They were asking me for help about how they can get their passenger list--such as this one for Senator Roméo Dallaire, for example. This is his passenger list. These things are very difficult to come upon. Not everybody can get their hands on these. Why are they being asked for this piece of paper? This is not what they need to prove their citizenship.

People don't understand the process. They're afraid and they don't know what to do. I'm not an expert in immigration, for goodness sake--war brides, yes, but not immigration.

I personally feel there is a tsunami waiting. I used that word a while ago, and I really mean it. There is going to be trouble. People are afraid.

There is a lady. I'm not going to say her name. Jan is her first name. She is afraid to speak. She would have been here today, but she cannot. She is afraid that if she says anything, she's going to be targeted.

They are going to stick their heads in the sand until the time comes and they can't wait any longer. When they need their CPP, their OAP, whatever it is, some federal government service, then, boy, oh boy, we're going to see something hit the fan. It's going to be huge. It is huge.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Mr. Alghabra.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON

The reason I'm asking this question is to illustrate how serious this problem is and that it really needs to be dealt with as quickly as possible.

I only have 40 seconds. Can somebody tell me what they think the solution should be?

11:45 a.m.

As an Individual

William Smith

Establish what a fair claim to citizenship is and make it apply. But put it in law. Don't leave it to somebody's whim and fancy, because you're going to have different results.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Mr. Veeman, you have your hand up as well.

11:45 a.m.

As an Individual

Christopher Veeman

I was going to add that births abroad were able to be registered until 2004. I haven't heard a good explanation of why that registration period could not be extended. I think that would take care of a lot of these cases. There are different kinds of cases, but in the one I'm talking about, that would solve the problem.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Alghabra.

Madame Faille.

11:45 a.m.

Bloc

Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First, I would like to greet you all. This isn't the first time we've met. The issue of citizenship is very important for me, for two reasons.

First, the identity question is a great concern for us as Quebeckers, but there is also the fact that I am the member for Vaudreuil-Soulanges. That's a riding located just next to the veterans hospital. A lot of veterans' families live in my riding. The Manoir Cavagnal, among others, houses a number of elderly persons. During my visits, I met war brides, who told me all their stories. When I took an interest in the citizenship issue, that meant a lot to them. It also troubled them for their children, I believe.

Melinda, you know one of those women from Hudson, with whom you worked. I'd like to ask you some questions. You talked about the fact that, in 1994, there was this concept of Canadian citizenship. Last week, the veterans of the Canadian Legion came and testified. As the celebrations of the anniversary of the battle of Vimy approach, we're talking about the emergence of a nation at that time as well.

In the historical research that you've done, could we go back to 1917?

11:45 a.m.

Historian, Canadian War Brides

Melynda Jarratt

In fact, I find it interesting that you raise that question, because I spoke with Pierre Allard, of the Royal Canadian Legion, on Friday, and with Joe Taylor, by way of conference call. In that conference call, Mr. Allard surprised me by saying he's not even happy with 1910. He wants to go back to 1867.

Listen, I keep on using the example of Borneo because I think it's so ridiculous. When we're talking about Canada, yes, there may not have been a Citizenship Act, but the spirit of Canadian citizenship existed. My mother was born in 1917, in Bathurst, New Brunswick. She's a Canadian. My father was born in Quebec, in 1915. He's a Canadian. These war bride children are people who were born to Canadian servicemen. Joe Taylor is a Canadian. You can't revise it.

It's the spirit of Canadian citizenship. Even the Canadian government documents prove it. In 1942, 1943, 1944, 1945, they were saying “Canadian citizenship”. They are definitely saying citizenship. Prime Minister Mackenzie King was welcoming war brides in August 1946, saying, “Welcome, Canadian citizens”. The Minister of Veterans Affairs in 1946 was saying that war brides were Canadian citizens.

So, yes, it is a continuum, as Mr. Kish said last week from the Legion. There is a continuum of citizenship. Just because a thing called the Citizenship Act came into being on January 1, 1947, that doesn't mean everybody who lived in Canada before then wasn't a Canadian.

I hope that answers your question.

11:50 a.m.

Bloc

Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC

Thank you. I just have one more question for Mr. Veeman.

Do you know how Americans react to deportation orders of that kind, when people have lived here for 59 years and suddenly they're sent back to the United States?

11:50 a.m.

As an Individual

Christopher Veeman

I don't really know how they would react.

I don't know how they would react, but I don't think they'd welcome this type of person with open arms. The important thing is that he has no connections to the United States. I just find it to be somewhat absurd to think that's a logical response to the situation.

11:50 a.m.

Bloc

Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC

I believe Mr. Bosdet would like to make a comment.

11:50 a.m.

As an Individual

Charles Bosdet

Melynda was talking about a continuum, and that brought an image to mind. My grandfather's passport—the one I have a copy of—was issued by the British government in Mexico, but it said in huge block letters on the page, “Canada”. I imagine this continuum, this sense of citizenship in Canada, began before 1947, to be sure.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Thank you, Madame Faille.

Mr. Siksay.

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank you all for coming, some for the first time and some of you after many times. I'm sorry that you have to come back and keep working on it, but I'm glad you're persistent folks and willing to do that.

It's interesting, Mr. Veeman, in regard to the specific case you raised, we spent a lot of time in the committee when we were looking at Bill S-2 talking about what to do in the circumstance where someone was a Canadian but had a criminal record. I remember some of us saying very clearly that it shouldn't matter, if they were a Canadian they were our criminal, in that sense. That may be a blunt way of putting it, but I think we have to deal with the fact that there's no reason to discriminate against that person on that basis, and we already made that decision when we were looking at Bill S-2 and trying to decide what the ramifications were. Citizenship does imply that you will make mistakes and won't lose your citizenship because you've made that kind of mistake.

Mr. Bosdet, you ran out of time in your presentation, and I just wonder if there were other things you wanted to cover. You were talking very specifically about some suggestions about administrative law panels. Mr. Veeman made that suggestion as well, but did you have other suggestions or issues you didn't get to that you'd like to speak about?

11:50 a.m.

As an Individual

Charles Bosdet

Yes, and I want to add a couple of points.

The administrative law judge panel is a good idea, because when I went through the Federal Court database some time back, reading every case I could find on citizenship, I was frankly amazed at how few cases there were. There is not a substantial body of case law there, and this is a problem for citizens because when they go to find a citizenship lawyer, good luck. There are tons of immigration lawyers; there's money in immigration. There's no money in citizenship, and so you don't find them. That's one problem for practitioners.

Another is that you have this system that's cranking out decisions left and right, but the rationale is never brought to light. It's never made available for others to see and to vet, and so one part of the system may be doing this, another part is doing that. Somebody is unfairly denied something, but you never hear about it. These are people getting mugged in the dark.

If you want to bring transparency to the system and raise the quality of the decisions being made, one way of doing that is to say, “Okay, this decision is going to go on the web. We're going to put a panel of professional judges in here, and they're going to vet these things, and when they issue a ruling, the ruling is going to be public.” There are all of the benefits that flow from that, not least of which is that even as administrative law opinions, they can be used for precedential value.

That also plugs a huge gap between what you have now, where the citizenship judge is the only alternative somebody has in the process right now, and Federal Court. Spend your life's savings on Federal Court, or if you feel lucky, go to a citizenship judge, whose decision is based on a summary prepared by the prosecutor. I don't know anybody in the western hemisphere who thinks that if you have a dispute with the citizenship processing centre evaluator, it is a good idea to have that person who is prosecuting your case be the one to write it up and present it to somebody else without any input from you, other than maybe what you've put on paper. The only obligation these citizenship judges have is to read that summary, unless something piques their curiosity, and then they can ask for the file. That's sort of an abortion of justice right there.

I am a big fan of transparency. It's worked for California across a number of fields. I don't see why it couldn't work in citizenship. If we hold citizenship as dear as we say, let's put a few judges out there, get this system on track, and then audit the thing. Audit it initially to see that it's on track and that it's working, and certainly audit randomly the decisions coming out of the case processing centre. Let's see what that turns up. I'm kind of curious here.

There's another reason there isn't as large a body of law there, and that's because some people just don't have the money to go to court.

Something else comes into play here. If you have people who come from different countries, maybe they grew up in a culture that's a bit different. Maybe they're very deferential to authority. If somebody in Sydney says no, they don't challenge it, maybe, or they don't have the resources to challenge it, or they don't know how. The result is the same--they go away. Then there are those who have the money and mount the challenge in Federal Court at considerable cost to themselves, and the moment it looks like they're losing, maybe the government attorneys do what any attorney would do--they go and offer to settle. So those don't make it into the database either.

I suggest that what you see in the database is a very skewed picture of what goes on in Sydney, and quite possibly Ottawa, because all of the cases that could get there don't, and the system is stacked against making that happen. I don't think that's in the benefit.... We wouldn't be wrangling with some of these problems here if you had a more effective system at that end, doing what it ought to be doing in the way it ought to be doing it.

That's one thing.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

I will have to leave it there. We're into six minutes.

I'll go now to Mr. Komarnicki briefly for five minutes, and then we have to cut it off there. Some members have asked me for an additional question. We can't do it. We have a second panel that we have to bring on.

Mr. Komarnicki.

March 26th, 2007 / 11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Obviously we won't be able to ask specific questions, so I'm going to make some comments rather than ask questions. I want you to know that I appreciate your coming in and giving some very specific concerns that you have and some specific suggestions that we'll certainly take into account.

I know in this area there is a lot of misinformation, misconceptions, and so on. We need to try to stay away from that. I know my colleague Mr. Alghabra indicated that the impression was that the problem was not a big one, that it was a problem affecting only 450 persons. In fact--and I can say this for the minister--she didn't say that's the number out there. That is the number of people who actually called with specific issues that the department received, but that's certainly not an indication of those who might be affected. Certainly those numbers are far larger, and if you had everyone involved, it would be far larger than that.

So you can't mix the facts and throw facts and figures loosely out there, because it certainly isn't something that is correct. We realize and appreciate that there are more than 450 affected, and there are reasons why some may not have called in to the call centre. Certainly we need to address that. I appreciate that there are a lot of war brides and war children. Many of them have entered Canada and are citizens today, but it's those who are not considered citizens who we want to address. There are a number of categories--at least six specific ones, but perhaps more than that--which we need to address. I know there's a great temptation to politicize this by many and make a political issue of it and try to make political points and political gains.

This problem has been around since 1977, perhaps earlier--as you suggested, 1947. Simply pointing fingers and trying to make the next guy look bad is not the issue. The issue is whether we can address it in a logical way that will resolve the majority of problems. I think it's probably safe to say you'll never get it 100% resolved, but we should attempt to do that. Certainly it is our view that we need to address this problem. It's been there for a long time under many administrations, under many different ministers, and it would be good to get this matter to a place where we can see some resolve.

I take Charles Bosdet's concern that there is perhaps a need for some streamlining within the administration and a positive attitude in determining it. Perhaps we need to have a communicative system and an administrative system that brings all of these issues to a focal point at a single desk where there are knowledgeable people who can deal with that. I certainly take that into account.

Mr. Veeman comes from my home province--good to see you here--and obviously has a unique case at hand, which hopefully will resolve itself. You raised the issue of what happens in terms of criminal offences that are committed in the midst of this, before discretion is resolved. I'm wondering if you feel that the discretion should be exercised without regard to criminality or security or whether we should look at the point at which citizenship takes place--

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

We have about a minute and a half to answer all these questions.

Noon

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

I haven't posed a question. I'm just posing a question to Mr. Veeman, and I'm making comments.

Do you think we should go back to the point at which the person ought to have gained his citizenship and not be concerned about criminality or security, or is that an issue that should be in place? That's a question to Mr. Veeman.

And then I have a question to Mr. Smith. I appreciate your stress and concern and emotional regard. I know the minister, on a temporary basis while we're looking at this, has asked for persons to apply for discretion for.... I wonder if you applied under that provision, because it's certainly something that would be given concern.

Noon

As an Individual

William Smith

It's still the second application, but I'm a big believer in the old statement “Don't listen to what people say. Watch what they do.” So I'm still in the second slot there.

Noon

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

I'm hopeful that you will get a positive result to your case.

Perhaps Mr. Veeman can answer my question, and then I will conclude, if I have time.

Noon

As an Individual

Christopher Veeman

I think that the different treatment might be with regard to those who are applying for a grant of citizenship from the minister, for example, permanent residents applying to become citizens. I think that criminality is a factor that should be considered there, but when you're talking about someone who we say is a citizen by birth, then I think you're looking at when that citizenship right accrued, and criminality is not relevant to that.