Evidence of meeting #62 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cases.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Janet Siddall  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Clark Goodman  Acting Director, Citizenship and Immigration Program Delivery, Operational Management and Coordination Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Rose Anne Poirier  Manager, Program Support, Case Processing Centre, Sydney, Nova Scotia, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Rosemarie Redden  Manager, Citizenship Case Review, Case Management Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Margaret Dritsas  Nationality Law Advisor, Citizenship Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Eric Stevens  Legal Counsel, Legal Services, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Samy Agha

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Blair Wilson Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

If I could make a suggestion, I would suggest that this document be distributed to all members of Parliament, because there is some pertinent new information based upon the work we've been doing here in the committee.

The next question I have is with respect to the numbers. I know we talk about having 300 cases pending and a 96% success rate. How many lost Canadians does the department feel are out there who we are trying to capture with respect to this print program that we've just put out, with the advertising program that's in the works, and with the $300,000 that we're going to be spending on public relations?

11:45 a.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Janet Siddall

We don't have an estimate. It's very difficult to determine who the people may be and where they may be. We—particularly the group before you, those of us in operations—are dealing with the cases that come forward to us and we're tracking them very closely, but I'm not a statistician and I'm not able to make any kind of educated estimation of what the target audience might be, either in Canada or living outside Canada.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Blair Wilson Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

The committee has received numbers from Professor Edmonston. His estimates are 85,000 Canadian-born persons with U.S. citizenship living in the United States; 10,000 to 20,000 Canadian-born persons with U.S. citizenship living in Canada; 25,000 to 30,000 war brides; 6,000 war babies; 10,000 U.S. border babies; and 74,000 babies born abroad, including the 10,000 U.S. border babies.

It is a significant number, and I think it's a number that obviously the committee is using to spend time on this issue. Hopefully the government is now realizing that a significant number—upwards of close to 200,000-plus individuals—may be in the position of having lost their citizenship.

11:50 a.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Janet Siddall

We appreciate the work that Mr. Edmonston has done, and the department actually has been working with him, but as he himself indicated, the difficulty is knowing. Did 100% of those people not take steps? Did all of them take steps? It's finding what percentage of that potential pool of individuals actually do have an issue with their citizenship status. We're a bit practical on the operations side; we have to be focused on our work before us. What we are doing is making sure we have the resources and the training to deal with the individuals who are coming forward to us so that we can deal with them on a priority basis, as we've been instructed by our minister.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Andrew Telegdi

Thank you very much.

We're going to go on to Mr. Gravel.

11:50 a.m.

Bloc

Raymond Gravel Bloc Repentigny, QC

Good afternoon. I have some questions, but I also have some comments.

You said earlier, Mr. Goodman or Ms. Siddall, that if you could not provide information to people who approached you, you referred them to your Web site. A Web site does not mean much to people who are 80 years of age or older. Perhaps they should be provided with other sources of information. These people have trouble talking to an answering machine, so imagine what going to a Web site might mean to them.

The situation was unique in Quebec before 1994. I am a Catholic priest and I recorded children in the Catholic baptism records. From time to time, I baptized children born in the United States, in an American hospital. I recorded them and I sent the information to the civil status office, saying that they were Canadians. Are the children whom I baptized stateless persons? Have they lost their citizenship? They were born in the United States, and I had no documents other than the one from the American hospital. I filled out the appropriate form, I sent it to the civil status office, and the child was registered, so he or she was automatically Canadian. Are those children stateless today?

11:50 a.m.

Acting Director, Citizenship and Immigration Program Delivery, Operational Management and Coordination Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Clark Goodman

Each case is dealt with individually. As far as the situation with baptismal certificates in the province of Quebec goes, shortly after September 11, 2001, the then Minister of Citizenship and Immigration and Quebec Minister Facal made a joint announcement concerning which Quebec documents would be accepted as official documents. It was announced that only documents issued after January 1, 1994, by the directeur de l'état civil would be accepted for a citizenship application.

11:50 a.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Janet Siddall

If I could, in terms of the current Citizenship Act, someone born outside of Canada to Canadian citizen parents is a citizen. There was no need to be registered. So I would say anyone born after 1977 should not have a problem. Their birth certificate or baptismal certificate would have shown that they were children of a Canadian citizen.

11:50 a.m.

Rosemarie Redden Manager, Citizenship Case Review, Case Management Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

It's just that since 1994 they have to obtain a document.

11:50 a.m.

Margaret Dritsas Nationality Law Advisor, Citizenship Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

I would like to answer your question. When the Civil Code of Québec came into force, on January 1, 1994, the documents that were accepted by Quebec changed. After the events of September 11, the Minister of Relations with the Citizens and Immigration of Quebec announced that only certificates issued after January 1, 1994, would be accepted. I was baptized in Quebec, and my baptism certificate was not an accepted document.

11:55 a.m.

Bloc

Raymond Gravel Bloc Repentigny, QC

I know that the law changed after 1994. That is not what I am saying. I was a priest for 25 years, I baptized and registered a number of children before 1994, and those children were Canadians. They were born in the United States but baptized in Quebec, they were recognized as Canadian citizens.

11:55 a.m.

Nationality Law Advisor, Citizenship Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Margaret Dritsas

Under the Citizenship Act, every child born after February 15, 1977, is a Canadian. Between 1947 and 1977, the Act provided steps to be taken for registering a child born outside Canada. In 1977, provisions were added to enable people who could not register their children between 1947 and 1977 to do it under the 1977 Act.

11:55 a.m.

Bloc

Raymond Gravel Bloc Repentigny, QC

I have another question concerning an article published in La Presse this morning. Because not everyone reads La Presse, I hope this information has been published elsewhere. The article said that Ms. Finley will be introducing a bill in the near future. We do not yet know what form it will take, but when it is passed, people will be able to recover their citizenship automatically. So why not move up the introduction of this bill, rather than leaving these older people in a state of uncertainty, afraid that they are not Canadian citizens? Why not settle this question immediately?

11:55 a.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Janet Siddall

Well, the minister did appear before you, I believe it was on May 29, to signal her intention to table amendments to the Citizenship Act. I believe she said that she would like to table in the fall. There is obviously work to be done when you're drafting new legislation and there is also the whole legislative process, so the only response I can make is I think there is a commitment to move forward as quickly as possible, using the legislative process that is in place.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Andrew Telegdi

Thank you very much.

Mr. Batters.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Dave Batters Conservative Palliser, SK

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to say thank you to the delegation from the Department of Citizenship and Immigration for appearing before us. It's good to see you all.

I want to continue discussing the advertising that has been done in conjunction with this very important issue that the committee has been studying.

The minister, when she appeared before us last time, held up some advertisements that had been placed in national newspapers. I didn't have an opportunity to look at those myself, and I have to admit that I haven't really noticed those ads in national newspapers. I guess it's something that doesn't affect me, and prior to being a member of this committee, it's not something that I have seen.

I wonder if you have given any consideration to running television ads. Probably the most people in Canada can be reached through television. Certainly Mr. Karygiannis is bilingual, and it sounds like a great idea for it to be run in both official languages.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

You have my vote on that one.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Andrew Telegdi

Order.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Dave Batters Conservative Palliser, SK

I appreciate that you talked about the sensitivity with which the department's handling this issue, and that there is some sensitivity training that's going on with the front-line staff, because it must be absolutely devastating for someone who has assumed that they're Canadian their entire life only to find out that maybe they're not. Have you considered perhaps running a television ad where someone lays out in a very sensitive manner the different categories that people who might be affected may fall into or be so-called lost Canadians? We've talked at length that perhaps you could have a war bride in the ad, for example, talking about if you're someone who falls into this category. This is something you might want to look into.

There are other people we've heard from in this committee who may be affected, some of whom would be Hutterites and the so-called border babies. Running different advertisements and being proactive to seek out these people, rather than waiting for them to someday discover they may not be a Canadian citizen, and be devastated--has that been considered? That's my first question.

As a corollary to that question, have you given some consideration to targeting the specific groups? Instead of a broadcast television ad on Hockey Night in Canada that's going to cover absolutely everyone and that personally doesn't affect me and doesn't affect a number of people in this room but only really affects specific groups of people, you could maybe go out and target specific organizations, the war brides for example—we heard a lady involved with the war brides in a previous committee meeting—Hutterite colonies, people who are specifically affected by this. You could be proactive and have advertising campaigns directed at them, saying this is something you might want to look into. Instead of the shotgun approach inThe National Post, you could have a very specific targeted approach with those individuals.

I would just like you to comment on those points.

Noon

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Janet Siddall

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

In terms of television and advertising, I think it sounds like a wonderful idea, but there's a cost. We'll certainly take that back for consideration. In terms of proactive targeting, we have been working with various groups that potentially represent individuals who might have concern about their citizenship. We have been working for years with the Mennonite Central Committee, for example, on the Mennonites.

I'm going to turn to my colleagues, because I know that you've been working with the association related with war brides and children of Canadian Forces personnel.

Noon

Acting Director, Citizenship and Immigration Program Delivery, Operational Management and Coordination Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Clark Goodman

I can add to that. I personally met with the Mennonite Central Committee recently. I was invited to speak to them about files, as was Mark Davidson, who was here on May 2, I believe.

With respect to DND, DND has a section of their website devoted to citizenship issues with links to CIC. The citizenship branch has received about 22 inquiries directly from the Department of National Defence.

As I mentioned earlier, we've contacted the provincial governments to let them know about what's going on. As Ms. Siddall mentioned, she's been in contact with CBSA and HRSDC and others.

Do you want to add something?

Noon

Conservative

Dave Batters Conservative Palliser, SK

I just have one point of clarification, Mr. Chair.

Noon

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Andrew Telegdi

Be really quick.

Noon

Conservative

Dave Batters Conservative Palliser, SK

Being a new member of this committee, I just have to beg forgiveness of the committee. It's the Mennonite community, not the Hutterite community, I should have been referring to.

Noon

Liberal

Andrew Telegdi Liberal Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Well, we'll probably get some Hutterites as well. I wouldn't worry about it.