Evidence of meeting #62 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cases.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Janet Siddall  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Clark Goodman  Acting Director, Citizenship and Immigration Program Delivery, Operational Management and Coordination Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Rose Anne Poirier  Manager, Program Support, Case Processing Centre, Sydney, Nova Scotia, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Rosemarie Redden  Manager, Citizenship Case Review, Case Management Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Margaret Dritsas  Nationality Law Advisor, Citizenship Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Eric Stevens  Legal Counsel, Legal Services, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Samy Agha

12:25 p.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

How much time do I have left, Mr. Chair?

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Andrew Telegdi

You have about three minutes.

12:25 p.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

Thank you.

We are talking about people who are Mennonites. Is the same thing true for people who are Doukhobors and Hutterites who could not have Canadian citizenship?

12:25 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Janet Siddall

I will start, but I have my experts here.

The basic premises, because of the way things are written in the Citizenship Act, are the issues of being born in or out of wedlock and of what is considered a legal marriage. The definition of a legal marriage is one that is recognized in the jurisdiction where it took place.

The difficulty with the Mennonite issue that has been raised here is that those religious marriages that took place in Mexico, for example, were not recognized by Mexico as legal marriages. That's what caused the problem.

12:25 p.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

But those people continued to live. Is there a solution for them, or do they continue to be stateless?

12:25 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Janet Siddall

I did read to you the proposals that our minister is making in terms of bringing amendments and changes to the legislation. One of them relates to being born abroad to a Canadian citizen in or out of wedlock, and removing the distinction.

12:25 p.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

Are you telling me that you are working on finding a solution for these people?

12:25 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Janet Siddall

I would refer you back to the minister's statement. I can't go into more detail.

12:25 p.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

I am going to move on to another question.

The minister confirmed that she would be introducing a bill in the fall to enable all these Canadians to escape the legal vacuum they are living in at present.

Have you heard anything about this bill? If so, has a retroactive date been decided for resolving the situations of people who would like to be officially recognized as citizens?

12:25 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Janet Siddall

Mr. Chair, I'd have to refer you back to the minister's statement. It was also published on our website.

In terms of any more substance, I'm just unable to comment on the substance, as this legislation continues to be developed. When it comes to this committee, I'm sure you'll have an opportunity to look at the details.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Andrew Telegdi

Thank you very much.

12:25 p.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Andrew Telegdi

Ms. Siddall, before we go to Mr. Siksay, I have one question, and it really causes me a great deal of problems.

If a couple comes to us from Mexico and they are a same-sex couple, they can apply for refugee status. They will get refugee status because they are discriminated against where they come from. We're progressive on that, which is good. At the same time, how can we say to Mennonites who had a church wedding that because their wedding was not recognized in the legal sense in Mexico, they all of a sudden lose their birthright?

There's a lack of consistency. On the one hand, Immigration bends over backwards to recognize cases of discrimination. But then we go into another arena, under Citizenship, and we say that if a couple only had a church wedding, we can't adopt the same policy if they didn't have a civil wedding, because church weddings aren't recognized in Mexico. Rightfully, we don't adopt that policy in terms of same-sex couples who are being discriminated against.

12:30 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Janet Siddall

If I may, Mr. Chair, the short answer from my perspective is that the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act was enacted in 2002, so we have a modern piece of legislation that reflects current Canadian values, whereas the citizenship legislation that we are working with includes the act from 1947 and the act from 1977.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Andrew Telegdi

Mr. Siksay.

12:30 p.m.

NDP

Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Thank you, Chair.

I again want to thank you all for being here. I'm still here. Our speaking order changed in the House, so I'm able to stay through the full committee meeting.

It seems to me that a number of the cases that have come to our attention came about because people applied for passports primarily because of the changes in the United States that require passports for people travelling by air. A number of folks who have never had to go through the process of verifying their citizenship were thrown into that position.

We know the United States is going to expand that requirement next year, by requiring passports for anybody crossing the land border with the United States. I'm sure that will mean many more Canadians who have never had a passport in their life will have to apply for passports. Is the department planning toward that? Do you expect a further increase in the number of applications for verification of citizenship and that kind of thing, as a result of the change in U.S. policy that's coming down the pipe?

12:30 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Janet Siddall

I have had a discussion with the Passport Office. They might be able to provide more detail to you, but what they tell me is that approximately 25% of the people applying for Canadian passports are doing so on the basis of a document issued by Citizenship and Immigration, rather than on the basis of a birth certificate issued by a province or territory.

As the overall number of passport requests increases, the increase for those documents from Citizenship and Immigration also increase, but we have in fact been able to keep pace with the increased demand from the Passport Office. Also, our expedited fast-back situation allows a very quick turnaround time when people are travelling on an urgent basis.

It again goes back to who knows what the numbers are. The Passport Office tells me as well that they're already dealing with applications from people who are indicating that they want their passports for the 2008, I believe, coming into force of the western hemisphere travel initiative. They have some projections, and we intend to continue to work with the Passport Office on their projections so that we can match our projections on the need to provide proof of citizenship for those who do not use a birth certificate.

12:30 p.m.

NDP

Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Do you have any sense, though, that this will be a larger number? Given the fact that the requirement right now affects air travellers, a lot of folks who travel by air would normally have a passport in any case. But when we get to the point of land border crossings, which many Canadians make on a regular basis, those people have never had to have a passport in the past. My suspicion would be that there's a much larger group of people who have never had to have this kind of documentation. Is that the department's suspicion? Is there any sort of planning toward accommodating an increase in applications?

12:30 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Janet Siddall

I'll let Clark speak to the number of applications for proof of citizenship. I don't have the projections that I can give you now, but I know the Passport Office is working on their projections of their increased volumes based on these changes in the requirements, and we will certainly be keeping pace with them.

But on our overall numbers, Clark....

12:30 p.m.

Acting Director, Citizenship and Immigration Program Delivery, Operational Management and Coordination Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Clark Goodman

I'll simply just add that since 2001, we have seen a steady increase in the number of people applying for proof of citizenship. It has increased over the years.

12:30 p.m.

NDP

Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Can you give us a sense of what kind of increase that was? Is it doubling or tripling, or something like that?

12:30 p.m.

Acting Director, Citizenship and Immigration Program Delivery, Operational Management and Coordination Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Clark Goodman

I wouldn't say doubling, no. Last year, I think we did close to 70,000. The year before, it was probably about 60,000, which is not, to my mind, a big increase. It's just growing.

12:30 p.m.

NDP

Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

It is a concern, and most of the concern has been with the Passport Office, not with Citizenship and Immigration. I want to be very clear about that.

I think all of our offices have been inundated—I don't think that's too strong a word—with the concerns of people who have had difficulty getting their passports. Some of that difficulty seems to have been because there hasn't been any long-term planning toward the changes that have required people to need a passport. I just want to make sure that kind of planning is going ahead as these other, further changes come onboard down the road.

I just want to conclude by thanking you again for coming, and by thanking you, as Ms. Grewal did, for all the work you do on behalf of Canadians. I know it hasn't always been easy lately, but I do appreciate that you do come here to talk to us about it.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Andrew Telegdi

Go ahead, Mr. Batters.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Batters Conservative Palliser, SK

Thanks again, Mr. Chair.

To the officials, I have a comment that I'd ask you to comment on, and than I have a couple of points to make.

In picking up on what Mr. Siksay, I believe, or Mr. Karygiannis said—I'm forgetting which—I would urge you to reach out to members of Parliament a little more than what has been the case, perhaps. As you go out and have these advertising campaigns, especially as they're more and more targeted, the first people these people are going to go to to ask these questions will be our front-line workers in our constituency offices.

I see your packages, but to be honest, I'd really urge you to put together a nice succinct piece, a two- or three-page piece saying here's the issue and here are the groups that are typically affected. It's an executive summary, if you will, written for members of Parliament, but one that could very easily be distributed to all staff members of the member of Parliament. It would be nice to have a conference call, for example, available to the staff of all members of Parliament, and to say that in this conference call we're going to discuss for an hour what the issue is, which people are affected, and whom you may be getting in your office.

This type of information could be put on your website. It could be nice and succinct—say, three pages as people scroll down. I do agree with Mr. Gravel that you're dealing with a lot of people who are probably not web savvy or not hooked up to the Internet, so I think a little less reliance on this most modern powerful tool would be a recommendation that I would make to you, respectfully. That's my first comment.

In this succinct piece that you'd put together, you'd address the questions of, for example, Mr. Karygiannis, saying we have an agreement in place with the RCMP and CSIS that your background checks and fingerprints will be fast-tracked if you fit into these groups. This type of information is powerful for people. As well, I would put in the information package the need for members of Parliament and their staff to be sensitive to these individuals who are coming in.

All this stuff, I think, could be put into a front-line piece distributed to—There are only 308 of us. We all have front-line constituency office workers. You could ameliorate a lot of the damage and a lot of the confusion that's created around these cases through our front-line workers.

Could I have a quick comment on that, perhaps, before I proceed?