Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 31st, 2009

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

I'm sorry, but there's a difference between convicted and deported. Mr. Chair, if a person is convicted in Canada, the person is sent to prison.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

I have the floor.

The previous motion that we talked about said that no one will be deported to Sri Lanka. It doesn't matter whether they're convicted of a serious crime. It doesn't matter whether they've gone into your riding and killed people; they will not be deported to Sri Lanka. I think that is a real, serious problem and not something that this committee should have sent to Parliament in the first place. It's not a signal that we should be sending to Canadians, that this committee will protect people convicted of serious crimes. I think it's something we have to address. We have an opportunity to do it. Let's just do it and show Canadians that we're serious, that we agree with our court system, that we agree with the IRB, and that we will stand up for law-abiding Canadians who don't want to be frightened as they walk the streets. How difficult is that?

Why should I not go back to my riding and say that the members opposite don't care that the people who have been extorting your businesses should be allowed to still roam the streets? I'm suggesting that we change the motion to reflect that people convicted of crimes go back. It's not a very difficult concept. Do we now, then, go back and say let's go to the justice committee and let's open the prisons again, because people should be roaming the streets; in the immigration committee, if you're convicted of attacking someone with a meat cleaver, we'll let you walk the streets. No problem: you're not going to be deported—but if you're convicted of something else, we'll put you in jail.

Consistency is extraordinarily important. I think it's very important that all Canadians understand that we perhaps didn't take as much time thinking about the previous motion as we should probably do right now. Show them that we're very serious, and let's move on with this. I don't see how this could be a difficult point.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

We have a little more than 12 minutes. Just so that the chairman is clear, the amended motion by Mr. Dykstra says:

That in the opinion of the committee, the Government of Canada should continue to deport individuals to Sri Lanka who have been convicted of serious crimes or have been convicted of war crimes; and that the recent motion passed by this committee be withdrawn; and that the committee add these recommendations as a report to the House; and that, pursuant to Standing Order 108(1), the chair present it to the House.

Ms. Chow.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Mr. Chairman, there's a humanitarian tragedy happening in Sri Lanka. There's a war going on. Seventy thousand people have died and tens of thousands of civilians are trapped in the war zone. Last time I looked, there were 200,000 civilians trapped. They have no food and they are being bombed. They are in desperate shape. There are at least 61,000 Tamils trapped in camps. There is a discussion about whether food can actually get to the camp. International aid agencies and rights groups are saying that the situation in Sri Lanka is desperate.

What we should be doing in this committee is talking about how we could help some of those people, especially if they have loved ones in Canada, and how we could get them out of the war zone to come to Canada to seek some safety in a safe haven. That's what we should be talking about here. That is what the motion in front of the House of Commons right now is all about. It is talking about finding ways to expedite matters for people who may have relatives in Canada and bringing them here as fast as possible. If they are refugee claimants, let's find some ways to bring them here to Canada, because every day and hour that we delay, they are dying in Sri Lanka. That is what we are talking about.

I am sorry, the reason I get excited about this is that it says here that the recent motion passed by this committee be withdrawn. I'm not going to withdraw that motion, because it talks about bringing people who are facing death and starvation into Canada. I fully support that motion, because sending people to their deaths when we can do something doesn't meet my moral standard. I want to find some ways to get the folks here. I'm not going to withdraw any motions in front of committees, because the situation in Sri Lanka is totally desperate right now.

I wasn't going to go into that big speech. I was just going to talk about some of the service issues on this motion, but since we're getting into the debate, I'm going to talk about what's happening in Sri Lanka and what's happening in the Tamil community. There's a really desperate situation and a humanitarian crisis there. I think we should find some ways to help these folks rather than worry about.... If the person is a serious criminal, you know what? That person is going to get deported anyway.

I don't know why we have been caught up for 25 minutes in dealing with this. We do not like criminals. If they are convicted of a serious crime right now, they should be in jail. They're not roaming the streets in Toronto or anywhere in Canada if they are serious criminals. They're in jail. I hope they're in jail; they shouldn't be out on the streets. If they're out on the streets, that's a totally different issue. That's a justice issue. It's not really an immigration issue. If they are serious criminals, why are they out on the street?

What are we talking about here? Criminals should be in jail.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I have four more speakers. The chair is really doubtful that we're going to finish this today, so while we're continuing on with Ms. Mendes, who is next, I would like the committee to think about when you'd like to continue with this debate.

Go ahead, Ms. Mendes.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Mr. Chair, I won't take very long. I'll just say that Ms. Chow is perfectly right. Criminals do not roam streets in Canada. They end up in prison if they're convicted.

The motion we passed on March 3 does specifically mention the reunification of families who are stranded in the war zone, so I'm not in any way prepared to withdraw that motion and to vote on this one. Perhaps we should move along and just vote on it.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

If we could call the vote, I'm fine with it. If it could be a recorded vote, Mr. Chair, I'd appreciate it.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I don't see any objections to that. There's an amendment and then there's the motion, so we're going to vote--

[Maurizio Bevilacqua, Liberal, Vaughan, ON]

Can we make brief comments on this?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I'm going to continue on with the list, if you want to make.... I have Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

It is becoming repetitious. There are a number of problems with this motion. It is a sloppy motion—I hate to be so blunt. There are four issues here. It forces the committee to withdraw a motion that was passed and is before the House. There is not just a procedural problem with that, but the previous motion dealt with humanitarian issues. I seriously doubt we would want to do that.

The next problem is, established by whom? We assume, but the amendment doesn't make it clear, that it would be Canadian courts.

Mr. Calandra, the mover of the motion, keeps talking about and referring to the IRB. These are very serious crimes. We can't have anything other than courts establish whether someone is a criminal of that type.

And then finally, Sri Lanka is a country in which there isn't a black and a white. Both sides have committed war crimes, and there's a tremendous difficulty. To whom do you return people who have been established by the Canadian court system to be war criminals? What would be the justice meted out to someone who participated with the army in engaging in war crimes, and what is the justice they would face if they were with the Tamil Tigers and had committed war crimes?

That's the final, fundamental issue here: Canada has always been careful not to deport to countries in which we have absolutely no confidence in the justice systems in place at the time.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

We have five minutes.

Madame Bonsant, and then Mr. Shory.

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

I will not speak for five minutes. The Bloc Québécois will vote against this amendment and this motion. I believe that it is not an immigration matter. As you are speaking about justice and not immigration, the matter should be referred to the Justice Committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Mr. Shory.

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's true and it is very sad that the situation in Sri Lanka is devastating, there is no doubt. It's also true that criminals should be in jail. But I believe there is a procedure such that you cannot keep anyone, for any indicted offence, in jail for their whole lifetime. The offender has to come out of jail.

What Mr. Calandra is suggesting—I believe he is trying to convince the committee—is that the last motion we passed simply says that no one should be deported. It does not address the issue of criminality at all. He's trying to convince the committee that we should fix our mistake, if we have made one.

I would say that under no circumstances will Canadians allow us as their representatives, as parliamentarians, to allow criminals to roam around on the street. We need to have our Canadian streets safe and secure. As Mr. Calandra mentioned, criminals with offences such as stabbing or killing someone.... Under the Immigration Act there is a procedure. If someone is convicted for an indictable offence, the IRB takes a position and they commence the proceedings for deportation. Just by passing the motion previously that no one should be deported, basically we are sending the message to the IRB that notwithstanding the criminality, notwithstanding the jail time, we should not be deporting anyone.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I want a vote on this.

You're right, if you want to discuss it, but we're not going to be able to vote if you keep talking.

Did you want to say something, Ms. Wong?

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond, BC]

My question is, Dave, what would happen to those now in jail who are from Sri Lanka and, according to our immigration, will be deported if they are not Canadian citizens? The motion we passed last time would give them the opportunity to stay. It might override our immigration policy.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

All those in favour—

I'm sorry, Ms. Wong.

[An hon. member]

Let's have a recorded vote.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

There is a recorded vote. Call the roll, Mr. Clerk.

(Amendment negatived: nays 6; yeas 5)

(Motion negatived: nays 6; yeas 5)

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

We'll see you on Thursday at nine o'clock sharp. This meeting is adjourned.