Evidence of meeting #29 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was employers.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Timothy Owen  Director, World Education Services
Amy Casipullai  Coordinator, Policy and Public Education, Ontario Council of Agencies Serving Immigrants (OCASI)
Elizabeth McIsaac  Executive Director, Toronto Region Immigrant Employment Council
Wendy Swedlove  Chair, Working Group on Immigration and Foreign Credential Recognition, Alliance of Sector Councils
Yves Beaudin  National Coordinator, Canadian Information Centre for International Credentials, Council of Ministers of Education, Canada
Shahnaz Sadiq  President, Alberta International Medical Graduates Association
Christiane Gagnon  Vice-Chair, Office des professions du Québec

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Carry on.

9:20 a.m.

Coordinator, Policy and Public Education, Ontario Council of Agencies Serving Immigrants (OCASI)

Amy Casipullai

Thank you.

I can actually provide a clarification. The Colour of Poverty campaign uses this definition, that race is a social construct; it uses “racialized” in that context. What it would mean is someone who is not white, regardless of their country of origin and country of birth. Because of the way migration patterns have emerged in the last 25 years or so, country of birth is not a predictor of race. I hope that clears it up.

We found a strong intersection between race and poverty. What this means is that the cost of the actual process is prohibitive for many immigrants. Most are among the working poor, even though they work more than 35 hours a week just to meet basic living costs, and many cannot afford the fees, as I said before, to complete an assessment or write a test, and they don't have the resources to complete a practicum.

Our second recommendation is that together with subsidized placement opportunities, the federal government invest in a grant rather than a loan program for those of low-income background who seek to have credentials recognized.

The third piece is labour market integration. OCASI believes that any analysis of the foreign credentials recognition challenge must look at labour market integration, because after all, immigrants pursue credentials recognition for a purpose, primarily to work. This is the single largest gap that we have found in any government investment in this process, whether it is at the federal or provincial level. Most initiatives we have found are good. They are welcome, they are important and they are a good start, but most of them have focused on improving the immigrant, building a better immigrant, so to speak, and they have paid little or no attention to dismantling labour market barriers, to actually using the now-recognized credentials to get and retain a job in one's field.

For example, the federal government recently introduced The Employer's Roadmap. It is an amazing tool. It's a useful first step in addressing this challenge because it gives employers the information they need to hire an internationally trained worker. But this alone is not sufficient to facilitate labour market integration. It doesn't address, it cannot address, systemic barriers such as racism and xenophobia, which is a very real phenomenon that many immigrants encounter in the labour market. While the information the road map provides to employers is useful, it assumes that most employers are willing to hire internationally trained workers, which is why they are seeking that information. We feel this assumption is dangerous.

What we recommend is that the federal government should invest in tax subsidies or other financial incentives for employers to actually take that step, to hire internationally trained workers. We also urge the federal government to look at its own hiring practices to comply more effectively with federal employment equity legislation. We know that federally regulated private sector employers such as financial institutions are doing far better than the federal government in practising employment equity, particularly in hiring members of racialized communities, including recent immigrants. The federal government needs to do better in this area.

One suggestion we have in that area is to look at contract compliance; that is, if the government subcontracts to a third party, a requirement would be written into the contract so that the third-party contractor would also follow employment equity.

Finally, we strongly urge you to look at the data collection piece, because right now we actually don't have a good picture of what immigrants' experience is in labour market integration and in pursuing credentials recognition. What we would like to see is disaggregated data, that is data disaggregated by race and gender, which gives us a better picture of where the gaps are and who is affected, because we know that these initiatives don't impact on everyone in the same way. They're actually quite different.

We would like you to take a look at collecting that kind of data, which is critically important and which can actually work very well with the work that Statistics Canada has already undertaken in this area.

Thank you.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you very much.

Ms. McIsaac. Thank you for coming.

October 22nd, 2009 / 9:25 a.m.

Elizabeth McIsaac Executive Director, Toronto Region Immigrant Employment Council

Thank you, and good morning, honourable Chair and members.

My name is Elizabeth McIsaac. I am the executive director of the Toronto Region Immigrant Employment Council—for short, TRIEC, which is much simpler.

TRIEC is a multi-stakeholder council bringing together employers, community organizations, colleges and universities, occupational regulatory bodies, credential assessment service providers, and all three orders of government: federal, provincial, and municipal/regional. We do so in order to seek practical solutions to connect skilled immigrants with appropriate employment—a very singular mission.

At TRIEC, our understanding of foreign credential recognition is cast broadly. In an effort to maximize our reach and impact, we have focused on those highly skilled immigrants who are seeking employment in non-regulated occupations. These represent the majority of immigrants who are coming to Canada. They are sales managers, financial analysts, software developers, project managers, marketing managers, HR professionals, and so on.

Whether and how their credentials, experience, and qualifications are recognized is ultimately up to the employer. Our work with regard to foreign credential recognition has been focused largely on reaching out to employers to build their capacity to effectively recognize immigrant skills, experience, and qualifications.

For many employers, concerns around hiring skilled immigrants include not understanding their experience, not being familiar with their credentials, and questioning their communication skills. Often, the requirement for “Canadian work experience”, of which you hear all the time, is in fact a proxy for not knowing how to interpret the immigrant's qualifications. This lack of familiarity and the perception of risk that goes along with it lead to widespread non-recognition of immigrant qualifications by employers.

This has been our focus since TRIEC was established in 2003. We think it is important to recognize that some programs, initiatives, and practices have met with success and that future directions should build on this success. The remainder of my comments this morning will therefore focus on opportunities that I think the federal government should consider in order to facilitate immigrant attachment to the labour market and to mitigate the impact of the current economic climate on skilled immigrants and ensure that immigrants and employers alike are ready for the recovery.

First, internships or work experience programs more generally have been very successful employment interventions, because they involve employers directly. Internships can provide immigrants with their first job in Canada as well as with professional references, both of which reassure risk-averse employers. On average, more than 80% of participants find full-time work in their field upon completion of a work experience program. This is a highly successful outcome, both for the individual and for the economy. However, the demand for internships from immigrants far exceeds the number of participating employers and positions.

There are also employers in communities across the country who would welcome an internship program but who lack the capacity to establish one. There is need for a national internship program. It could leverage the participation of employers across the country through a variety of instruments, including paid internships, wage subsidies, and tax credits.

These incentives may be particularly important to encourage the participation of small and medium-sized businesses, which we know create 80% of the new jobs in Canada. It would also send an important message to Canadian employers if the federal government were the lead employer in this initiative. It would be very important to see the federal government as the leader in providing internships to immigrants. There has been a pilot in the last year with CIC and HRSDC in this regard. I think the success of that pilot should be expanded.

Second, mentoring programs have been successful because they connect skilled immigrants with a mentor who is an established colleague in their occupation. The mentor shares professional networks and helps them to navigate the job search. The “mentee”, or skilled immigrant job-seeker, gains a greater understanding of the occupational context and of expectations in Canada.

In 2004, TRIEC launched something called The Mentoring Partnership. Almost 80% of surveyed participants in this program have found employment, and of those, 80% were in their field. To date, more than 4,000 immigrants have been matched through this program. While many smaller-scale mentoring programs are currently offered across the country, they have difficulty finding high-quality mentors and they lack marketing resources.

As well, while mentoring programs are extremely cost-efficient, these initiatives are not well-funded. Creating a national mentoring program would allow for enhanced program quality and coordination, would increase employer participation, and would provide reliable and sustained funding. Again, it would be important to see the federal government as a lead employer in such an initiative.

Third, bridging programs are successful. They bring together key stakeholders, employers, occupational regulatory bodies, and educational institutions to work together to assess immigrants' skills and competencies, to deliver training, and to provide mentoring or workplace experience. The objective of these programs is to fill any gaps that may exist in the knowledge or skills, while avoiding duplication in an immigrant's education and training.

To date, there have been very successful examples of bridge training in various sectors: in health care, engineering, information technology, financial services, education, and so on. Most bridging programs have been funded by provincial ministries, and while the outcomes of bridging programs have been very promising, they are only accessible to a limited number of participants and are not self-sustaining.

There may be an opportunity for the federal government to create a sustainable investment stream for a coordinated bridge training program across the provinces, as well as a loans program to enable participation in these programs. In Ontario, the Maytree Foundation launched a loans fund program for immigrants who are doing training. It has been incredibly successful. The repayment rate is over 90%. I think it's time that we look at replicating and taking it to scale.

Finally, I believe we need a national strategy for employers in Canada, so that we are better able to recruit, retain, and promote skilled immigrants. Employers are key stakeholders in this issue, as it is they who ultimately recognize or reject the credentials and skills of immigrants. A national strategy could do three things: one, develop awareness among employers; two, create and disseminate tools that support employers in working with immigrants; and three, connect employers to the programs and supports that will build our capacity.

First, there is still a need to increase employer awareness of the value of immigrant skills and of how including this talent pool can make Canada more productive and competitive in the global marketplace. As the Canadian economy looks forward to recovery, the time is right to work with employers to understand this opportunity and to support their ability to take advantage of it. With support from CIC and the FCR, TRIEC has been successful in running awareness campaigns in the Toronto region to engage employers. We also have run an employer awards program to shine the light on those employers who have demonstrated innovation in leadership and to build momentum around the employer community.

Second, employers need tools and resources to support their change. There exists a wide array of assessment tools for language, academic credentials, and occupational competencies, and there are HR practices that employers need to know about and trust. I think there is an opportunity for the federal government, through the FCRO, to convene sector councils, other sector-specific employer associations, and regulatory bodies to participate in the development, recognition, and promotion of sector-specific language and occupational competency assessment tools.

And third, while labour market programs for immigrants have been developed and been invested in, there has not yet been a parallel investment in programs targeted directly at employers. There is a strong and growing demand from employers for support in recruiting, assessing, and retaining skilled immigrants. A first step in this direction would be to create a single point of entry for employers.

Many employers are hesitant to consider government programs because of the red tape and the complexity. This is even more the case among the small and medium-sized community. As a result, most SMEs—small and medium-sized enterprises—are not aware of programs that could help them. The programs need to be more accessible. It would be helpful to create and invest in an integrated suite of programs and supports for employers to build their capacity to recruit, assess, and retain skilled immigrants.

Together, the above three elements could form a national strategy for employers that would enhance labour market development, contribute to the productivity and competitiveness of Canadian business, and build success for immigrants.

Thank you.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you very much.

We now have some questions from the members of the committee.

We will start with Mr. Karygiannis.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Good morning to all three, and thank you for coming.

Mrs. Casipullai, I've noticed some comments you made, concerning which I share your frustration, about racialized xenophobia.

Things haven't changed from previous generations when immigrants were coming in. Maybe the immigrants coming in a generation ago were Caucasian, but we were probably flagged; we were probably not, let's say, welcomed. There were negative reactions towards the Italians and negative remarks, and towards the Greeks the same thing.

So although I understand the frustration, I also want you to be aware that this committee and these members don't appreciate where you're coming from. Unfortunately, or fortunately, the recent immigrants who are coming to this country are visible minorities, and maybe the frustration levels are a little higher. When I was growing up, if you didn't speak English you were called the “Greek monkey”. My colleague across the way, Mr. Calandra, is Italian. They were called wops—“without papers”—because when they were coming in they didn't have paperwork. So we have all felt the same frustration. Maybe now the frustration is a little higher.

Having said that, though, and I'm sure you appreciate where I'm coming from, can you tell me, Mr. Owen, what credential evaluations you do? Engineers have their own, medical doctors have their own, pharmacists have their own. What credential evaluations does your organization do, sir?

9:35 a.m.

Director, World Education Services

Timothy Owen

We would evaluate any academic document that's presented to us. We do evaluate documents that are engineering degrees or pharmacy degrees. These may not be presented to the licensing bodies, because the bodies have their own processes. Many engineers, for example, can work as engineers without being licensed; they just have to work under the supervision of a licensed engineer. So the employers may want to know if the qualifications the person has are equivalent to a Canadian qualification. But we would evaluate any academic qualification. We work with about half of the regulatory bodies in Ontario specifically, but any academic qualification could be evaluated by us.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Mr. Chair, I'll share my time with my colleague, Ms. Mendes.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all for your presentations.

I have a question for you, Mr. Owen, following some of the comments you made. In your opinion, what qualifications and skills brought to Canada by new immigrants are not given proper recognition in the labour market?

9:35 a.m.

Director, World Education Services

Timothy Owen

Which specific qualifications?

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Yes. Could you give us examples?

9:35 a.m.

Director, World Education Services

Timothy Owen

Well, I suppose there are a number of different ways I could answer that question. When considering the qualifications of people who come here to work and want to present their qualifications, many of the employers have never heard of the institution the person has come from, so they dismiss the qualification out of hand. They are familiar with Canadian institutions and know the names of Queen's and Western and the University of Alberta, but they haven't heard of the University of Mumbai. So the assumption is that it's not worth the same. They don't understand, perhaps, that there are ways to equate and compare qualifications.

There are people who apply to licensing bodies, and because of the difficulty or length of a process, it may be that their qualification isn't fully recognized. There may be gaps in the education they need to fill.

Similarly, in going to university, they may not get recognition for the education they have received. So they'll go back to start in year one, instead of going into year two or three of their program.

So there are many different ways in which their qualifications might not be recognized.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

What about their skills? You did mention both.

9:35 a.m.

Director, World Education Services

Timothy Owen

What we're doing is looking at their formal qualifications, which are often seen as a proxy for skills. But there isn't a formal or consistent process for recognizing and comparing the competencies people bring with them to the competencies expected in the Canadian workplace. That's not a field that is very well developed.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Okay, and that's something that is of concern to me. A lot of new immigrants bring not only language knowledge—which is often not recognized or given credit—but also the skills they have developed in having been business people in their countries, or innovators, or whatever. But these are not formally recognized in any field of work.

Are these some of the things you are...?

9:35 a.m.

Director, World Education Services

Timothy Owen

We don't do that kind of assessment. What we would encourage employers to do is to hire somebody and keep them on probation; that's an assessment of their competencies, like anybody else's.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

I think it was Ms. McIsaac who mentioned the tax credits for employers who hire new immigrants or newly skilled foreign students who have been admitted to Canada.

Can you elaborate on that a bit, please?

9:35 a.m.

Executive Director, Toronto Region Immigrant Employment Council

Elizabeth McIsaac

This is an idea that has been tossed around for a couple of years as an incentive, particularly to small and medium-sized business. This has come out of our experience with an internship program in Toronto called Career Bridge. It's a four- to twelve-month program. The employers pay for it, and it's $10,000 for four months. So they're actually paying the stipend that goes to the individual, plus a program fee to the organization.

The program has been very successful with the big banks, the insurance companies, the large corporations, because they have the ability to allocate these resources in a central HR budget. They may not even distribute them to particular business lines.

Where the program is having trouble being picked up is with small and medium-sized business, which may not be able to do that kind of forecasting or allocate that kind of investment. So we thought that if there were some kinds of incentives to drive them toward that opportunity.... I think Amy also mentioned these in her presentation.

We haven't costed this out. We don't know what it would actually come to, but I think it's worth investigation. I think it's worth having the government research the cost benefit of that, because what we do know from the successful outcome is that over 80% of the interns will be hired full time at the end of their internships, meaning their long-term trajectory in Canada will include their making a larger contribution. They'll be paying taxes sooner and will be productive. In that sense, the program will pay for itself. But we don't have the hard numbers at this time.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you, Ms. Mendes and Ms. McIsaac.

Monsieur St-Cyr.

9:40 a.m.

Bloc

Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC

Thank you very much.

Thank you for joining us. I want you to know that I am deeply concerned about the whole issue of foreign credential recognition. I, myself, am a member of the Ordre des ingénieurs du Québec. I have attended a number of general assemblies and been critical of the fact that they are not moving fast enough to my taste on this issue.

We all recognize, of course, that certain qualifications are required to work as an engineer in Quebec. Relations with the Bureau d'audiences publiques sur l'environnement, or the BAPE, can vary from one location to the next. However, the fact remains that the laws of physics are the same everywhere in the world, and if you are capable of building a bridge over the Tigris River, then you can build one over the St. Lawrence or any other river.

It has been said that this matter comes under provincial, in this case Quebec, jurisdiction. I'm not convinced by the federal government's actions. I think this money would be better invested in each province to help them develop their own programs. I believe Mr. Owen alluded to the lack of uniformity. An immigrant who arrives in this country cannot easily move from province to province. Even people who have studied here in Canada experience the same problem. A person who graduated with an engineering degree in Manitoba must be accredited before working as an engineer in Quebec. Therefore, a national framework or standardization process would be difficult to implement, given that provincial practices differ.

Don't you think the federal government should focus on informing people properly about the different provincial programs and directly encourage the provinces to assume this responsibility?

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Your question is directed to whom? Anybody?

9:40 a.m.

Director, World Education Services

Timothy Owen

Maybe I could start.

It's correct in terms of the jurisdictional issue. I think one of the points I made was the success—at least I think it's a success—the federal government has had in encouraging the different provincially licensed bodies to come together with mutual recognition agreements, so there can be greater portability of employment across Canada—which I think is a good thing. You can respect jurisdictions and still encourage mobility between those jurisdictions, and I think there's a role the federal government can play in that type of work encouraging mobility.

I think the mutual recognition agreements' success has actually encouraged regulators to be able to understand that a credential that's earned in another jurisdiction can be compared with one in their own, and that same shift in mindset has assisted them in recognizing foreign credentials.

9:40 a.m.

Bloc

Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC

Thank you. I will now turn the floor over to my colleague, Ms. Beaudoin.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Welcome to the committee, Madame Beaudin.

9:45 a.m.

Bloc

Josée Beaudin Bloc Saint-Lambert, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for coming here to testify today. I have listened to all of you and you have all stressed the importance of getting the cooperation of employers. I'm curious to know what you think about the idea of bringing in, perhaps in Quebec, an anonymous curriculum vitae that would focus first and foremost on people's qualifications rather than on their personal information.

What is your opinion of this prospective tool for employers?