Evidence of meeting #32 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was long.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
9:35 a.m.
Bloc
Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
Good day, and thank you for coming here this morning to share your experiences with us and also, for bringing us some data that will help the committee with its study.
You talked about family reunification, about the delays encountered in Accra and Nairobi which are now stretching to almost two years. This situation is truly unacceptable. In addition, in response to a question from my colleague, you also mentioned that applications from over 18 countries go through the Nairobi office.
You reminded us that very lengthy delays are encountered. In these countries, it is often difficult, as we know, to undergo an examination, to qualify or even simply to file an application. The process may be complicated because a person must provide security information, a criminal background check as well as up-to-date medical test results.
I'm interested in hearing your views on this situation. We know the medical test results are only valid for one year, but these results must be submitted at the start of the application process. These tests cannot be taken at random. The Canadian government has designated a number of doctors who are accredited to administer these medical tests.
The waiting period is now over 25 months long. This does not necessarily represent the amount of time required to process the application from start to finish, but rather the time it takes for the application to be put in the system. You talked about the entire process taking from three to five years. That could mean that persons may have to take their medical test over again several times while their application is being processed.
Instead of requiring medical tests and security checks at the beginning of the process, would it not be better, in your opinion, to wait until the application is actually being processed before asking people to supply these documents?
9:40 a.m.
Barrister and Solicitor, Partner, Long Mangalji LLP, As an Individual
Normally speaking, although the instructions provided by the visa post often ask for police certificates and medicals to be given at the very beginning, as a lawyer I would normally advise them to wait until the application is about to be approved before submitting these documents. I think there have to be better instructions in the packages themselves for applicants, saying to wait for the police certificates and medicals until a certain period of time because you're right: they absolutely do expire after a year and a half.
9:40 a.m.
Law Student, Caseworker, Immigration and Refugee Law Division, Parkdale Community Legal Services
I would agree with Elizabeth. My only concern is that we've seen how long a process takes with the processing of grandparents, where there are two stages, and the medicals and the criminal checks are not required in the first stage. I would just be worried that this would not encourage faster processing and that it would then provide maybe a little bit more of a reason to delay processing, which would obviously be a definite concern, especially when we're already waiting so long.
9:40 a.m.
Bloc
Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
Do you have any statistics on family reunifications, on applications refused by officers and appeals that were allowed?
9:40 a.m.
Law Student, Caseworker, Immigration and Refugee Law Division, Parkdale Community Legal Services
I do have refusal rates for all of the visa offices and there is this report I mentioned that talks about 40% of ADRs being successful. That does not include the immigration appeal division statistics.
However, I believe it might be a bit difficult. There might need to be an information request done in order to find more specific statistics, but I do have a list of all of the refusal rates.
9:40 a.m.
Bloc
9:40 a.m.
Bloc
Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC
I'd like to know your opinion of the current system.
First, a person's application is approved and then, there is a two-stage family reunification process. Do you believe that this is a logical way to proceed? Wouldn't it be simpler to change our system so that applications are all approved at the same time and persons can travel and arrive together?
9:40 a.m.
Barrister and Solicitor, Partner, Long Mangalji LLP, As an Individual
Absolutely. With regard to live-in caregivers, this approach of deliberately separating the families for four or five years is unacceptable. Why are live-in caregivers treated so differently from skilled workers and persons applying under the Canadian experience class? They are here to work. They will be members of our community. It's unacceptable that they are not processed together, at the same time.
9:40 a.m.
Bloc
Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC
As with many bureaucratic procedures, delays are the result of problems with the management of supply and demand.
Since becoming immigration critic, I've begun to think more and more that delays are used as a management tool to keep the number of applications down and to discourage applicants so that only those who are highly motivated to come to Canada actually apply. Delays are used as an excuse to tell people that if they really want to come to Canada, they will have to wait. If these individuals are prepared to wait two, three, four or five years, it means that they truly do want to come to Canada.
Do you sometimes get the impression that regardless of the government in office, waiting times are used as a tool to manage immigration?
9:40 a.m.
Barrister and Solicitor, Partner, Long Mangalji LLP, As an Individual
Absolutely. With regard to the visa posts but also with regard to the categories, such as parents and grandparents, only 15,000 persons are allowed. The quota is there for those coming into Canada each year. How many parents and grandparents can be processed during that time?
There is no reason, other than a quota or some sort of policy, in allowing a certain number of people. For it to take 32 months to be processed in the beginning, for people to be approved for sponsors...? The whole reason for that is to limit the number of persons coming into Canada.
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
November 3rd, 2009 / 9:40 a.m.
NDP
Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON
I'll pick up where you just left off. In fact, the targets have dropped. In 2008 the target was 18,000. It has dropped by 3,000 to 15,000. For spouses, the target has dropped from 50,000 to 42,000, so you have 8,000 fewer spouses coming in.
That's one of the reasons the wait times continue to grow. If you have fewer people being allowed in, then of course you have to wait longer.
But let me come back to the spousal sponsorship. I didn't know that age difference was.... That's quite amazing.
One figure I've seen, because I requested it, is from the Hong Kong visa post, where the turndown rate is more than 50%, which means that if you are going through the Hong Kong visa office, 5 out of 10 applications to sponsor a spouse will be rejected. It's hard to believe that 50% of them are marriages of convenience. A lot of them win at the appeal board, but they have to wait three to four years. Am I right?
9:45 a.m.
NDP
Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON
So from the time they get married and apply until they actually come together as a couple and are living together, we're looking at three to four years.
9:45 a.m.
Barrister and Solicitor, Partner, Long Mangalji LLP, As an Individual
It's five years and maybe more depending on the situation.
9:45 a.m.
NDP
Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON
Given that 50% of them get turned down and then appeal, and that a lot of them actually win at the appeal division, you're looking at a couple being divided for five years. Often there's a child involved, so there will have to be a decision as to whether the child goes with mom or dad. Likely it'll be mom, but if the mom is overseas, then the child will be separated from the mom for five years.
Let me see if I have this clear on the recommendations from both of you. There's a need for faster application. The turndown rate should be lower, especially in some visa offices. If a case is rejected, the immigration appeal division process now takes a year and a half, so we need more board members in the appeal division in order to process these cases faster. It used to take six months. How long does it take now?
9:45 a.m.
Barrister and Solicitor, Partner, Long Mangalji LLP, As an Individual
It takes 18 to 20 months.
9:45 a.m.
NDP
Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON
So it's close to two years that you have to wait for your appeal case. Once you go through the appeal division, assuming you win, then there really shouldn't be any excuse to make that person wait for another year or eight or nine months.
So your recommendation is that if the appeal division says that since this is a genuine marriage you should allow them to come, it should be two or three months before they arrive in Canada without having to repeat all the steps again.
9:45 a.m.
Barrister and Solicitor, Partner, Long Mangalji LLP, As an Individual
Yes, exactly.
9:45 a.m.
NDP
Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON
Are you saying that once the visa office receives the go-ahead they should just process the visa, that they should just do the medical examination and security clearance and skip doing the interview again? Do they do another set of interviews?
9:45 a.m.
Barrister and Solicitor, Partner, Long Mangalji LLP, As an Individual
There is really no need for an interview. That issue of whether or not the relationship is genuine has been tested by the immigration appeal division and a decision has been made by them. The only issues are the medical and police certificates. That's usually what takes so long.
9:45 a.m.
NDP
Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON
At the last stage, do they need to get interviewed again by the visa office?
9:45 a.m.
Barrister and Solicitor, Partner, Long Mangalji LLP, As an Individual
No, I wouldn't say that.
9:45 a.m.
NDP
Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON
So why would it take seven or nine months to get the medical and security clearances?
