Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Oct. 6th, 2010

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

What will happen if this legislation gets passed and nobody actually submits? Do we then realize we've passed legislation that in reality is not viable legislation? Will we have to go back to the drawing board and perhaps look at the recommendations made by the committee that we have a regulatory body set up the way the committee had recommended?

[Catrina Tapley]

If we find ourselves in a position where no applicants come forward through the process, we will still have a body. Until regulations are changed, that body will continue to exist.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Okay, so we're not further ahead. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Mr. St-Cyr.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you.

In our previous exchange, you confirmed that Bill C-35 was not aimed at protecting the general public, but at protecting the integrity of the immigration system. However, when the minister tabled the bill in the House and spoke about it in the media, he did in fact say that the bill's purpose was to ensure the protection of the public and of those involved in the immigration process. That's how it appeared in the news release and in the bill's title, which seems to indicate as much.

I understand that you cannot give your opinion on political issues—that's not your role—and I will not ask you to do that. However, can you confirm to the committee that, from a strictly technical point of view, the minister is erroneously claiming that Bill C-35 is aimed at ensuring the protection of the general public?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Mr. St-Cyr, is that fair to ask--

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

It's a technical question.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I don't know. Is it fair to ask the members of the staff whether the minister erred? I don't think so.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

I will rephrase my question, Mr. Chair.

Could you tell the committee whether it is technically correct to say that this bill aims to ensure the protection of the public?

[Catrina Tapley]

Mr. Chairman, we would argue that it's both, that by protecting the integrity of the immigration system we are also offering protection to consumers, that this helps consumers as well, that the overriding federal responsibility is the protection and the integrity of the immigration system.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Why does the same logic not apply to Quebec lawyers or notaries? Why is there no Canadian organization for immigration lawyers?

[Catrina Tapley]

Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure I understand the question.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

I will rephrase my question. Bill C-35 proposes a strengthening of the rules governing immigration consultants to ensure the integrity of the system.

Why did the department not consider proposing similar action at the federal level—in order to maintain the integrity of the system—for practising lawyers who also provide immigration advice for a fee?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I think they've already answered that, haven't they? Didn't they say that the lawyers, the students, and family are excluded?

I'm giving testimony, I apologize.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

I know that they are excluded. I know the answer, Mr. Chair, but I want to hear what the officials have to say about this.

Why did the federal government not think it appropriate to include in Bill C-35 provisions concerning lawyers and notaries?

[Elaine Ménard, Counsel, Department of Citizenship and Immigration]

I could maybe try to answer. My name is Elaine Ménard. I am a lawyer and I work for CIC Legal Services. I'll try to answer your question, sir.

As far as constitutionality goes, two sections are relevant. The first is section 91.25 of the Constitution Act, 1867, which concerns naturalization and aliens.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

I have to stop you there. My question is really simple. Why is Bill C-35 aimed at overseeing consultants, but not lawyers? Why did you make that decision? I'm not saying that I think lawyers should have been included. I'm just asking why.

[Elaine Ménard]

Lawyers et les notaires are already covered under provincial legislation. The Law Society acts, as you are aware--

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you. So, consultants should be overseen because you feel that there is a legislative gap, as provinces do not fulfil their duty when it comes to monitoring them. As a result, the federal government must do the monitoring, but it does not need to get involved when it comes to lawyers, since they are already overseen by the provinces. That is the basis of Bill C-35.

[Elaine Ménard]

I would just like to ensure there's clarity as to the constitutional question you posed beforehand. Then I'll let my colleagues answer to the policy question as to why there was a need for the consultants.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

I have to stop you there, since I have other questions to ask. I just want to understand properly. There are already lawyers who fall under provincial regulations, and there's no need to establish a federal structure for them. So, the reason for establishing such a structure for consultants is simply to bridge the gap.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Monsieur St-Cyr, I know that you're getting to the meat of your question, but we're well over, so you'll have to wait for the next round, sir.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

I already have my answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

That includes the time I interrupted you for.

Ms. Grewal is next.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I would like to thank you for taking your time to come. Thank you so much for the presentations.

I think this is really a very good piece of legislation, especially for people who have been cheated by these crooked consultants. They will certainly appreciate it. All of us see these victims who come to our offices and sit down and cry. I think this will really be very good.

The minister has made reference to a broader strategy to better regulate immigration consultants. Could you please inform us of the other components of this strategy?