Evidence of meeting #29 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was csic.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Fanny Levy  Acting Director, Manitoba Provincial Nominee Program, Government of Manitoba
Dave Dyson  Executive Director, Employment Standards Division, Manitoba Labour and Immigration, Government of Manitoba
Cobus  Jacobus) Kriek (Director, Matrixvisa Inc.
Selin Deravedisyan-Adam  Immigration Consultant, Ideal Canada, As an Individual
Joel E. Tencer  Immigration Consultant and Member, Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants, As an Individual

4:10 p.m.

Acting Director, Manitoba Provincial Nominee Program, Government of Manitoba

Fanny Levy

Well, as I said earlier today, in terms of the minister's involvement we believe that it's very important until this body is fully functioning, but of course we also understand that these bodies should be independent to be able to be fair as well.

4:10 p.m.

Executive Director, Employment Standards Division, Manitoba Labour and Immigration, Government of Manitoba

Dave Dyson

I have no comment on that.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

So the body in Manitoba, who do they report to?

4:10 p.m.

Executive Director, Employment Standards Division, Manitoba Labour and Immigration, Government of Manitoba

Dave Dyson

I report to a deputy minister who ultimately reports to a minister. Now, having said that, I'm a regulatory body, and I don't share with my minister or my deputy any of my investigations, where I'm going, and what my conclusions are. I don't ask for permission to regulate my act.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

But you're not a statutory body?

4:15 p.m.

Executive Director, Employment Standards Division, Manitoba Labour and Immigration, Government of Manitoba

Dave Dyson

I'm governed by statute. Yes, I am.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

You're governed by which statutes? How are you set up?

4:15 p.m.

Executive Director, Employment Standards Division, Manitoba Labour and Immigration, Government of Manitoba

Dave Dyson

Oh, no, in terms of that, no; I'm not a self-governing body.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

All right. thank you.

Mr. Kriek, one of the aspects of the bill that I think you try to point out in your document is the whole issue around the work taking place, or the research, or the actual body, I guess, that would do work on behalf of an individual--a consultant who works on behalf of an individual.

As of the new piece of legislation, it would actually be that where they would have to comply is before the application is actually filed. I just wanted to clearly get your thoughts on that in fact being the proper way for the government to move in terms of direction.

4:15 p.m.

Cobus (Jacobus) Kriek

Yes, I fully agree. If Bill C-35 could go ahead, it would make the immigration manual's paragraph 5.4 in chapter IP 9 ultra vires. This needs to be changed. This is the root cause of the problem. The existing law is not detailed enough. According to the status quo, anybody can assist a foreign national with an application, and even submit it, but cannot make an inquiry. That's the root cause of the whole issue. That's where it all starts.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you.

A point of order, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj?

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Yes. Several times we've had reference to the Manitoba legislation. I was wondering if that could be provided to us: the legislation dealing with the Manitoba provincial nominee program and the related legislation.

If that and the previous information you've committed to provide to the committee could be given to us by Monday, if possible, it would be tremendously helpful.

Thank you.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

That's not a point of order, but it's a reasonable question.

Could you provide that to us, sir?

4:15 p.m.

Executive Director, Employment Standards Division, Manitoba Labour and Immigration, Government of Manitoba

Dave Dyson

Absolutely.

4:15 p.m.

Acting Director, Manitoba Provincial Nominee Program, Government of Manitoba

Fanny Levy

Yes, for sure. I just want to clarify that it's not related to the provincial nominee program, but to the recruitment of foreign workers.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Mr. Trudeau.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Justin Trudeau Liberal Papineau, QC

Thank you, Chair.

I'm interested in hearing from our friends from Winnipeg a little more about what has been—you referred to it earlier, Mr. Dyson—effective in terms of deterrents and cutting down on ghost consultants and poor advice infiltrating the process.

I'd like to hear you expound on those a little bit, because one of the things that has been in this bill, which is all about cracking down on crooked consultants, is the idea that more penalities and longer sentences are a powerful deterrent. But you seem to say there are other ways that have been effective in your case.

4:15 p.m.

Executive Director, Employment Standards Division, Manitoba Labour and Immigration, Government of Manitoba

Dave Dyson

I need to think about that question. Our legislation does not regulate immigration consultants. It regulates recruiters. It just so happens that most recruiters are immigration consultants.

On regulating the recruitment piece of it, prior to our legislation we didn't even know which employers were recruiting employees. From an employment standards perspective, I spent a lot of my time trying to protect vulnerable workers. A temporary foreign worker can only work for a single employer—absolutely a vulnerable worker—but prior to our legislation we didn't know where those workers were. We didn't have a clue.

Because of our legislation, we now know where those workers are. We know which employers are bringing in those workers. So I can send out my investigators into those workplaces, interview those workers, and ensure that the terms and conditions of the labour market opinion are being abided by.

So if we're dealing with an unscrupulous recruiter who does what we call the bait and switch--if in the LMO document they promise to pay $20 per hour and once the worker shows up they say, well, we've changed our minds, or they say that the worker doesn't have the skill set so they're going to pay $9 per hour--our legislation allows us to enforce all the terms and conditions of the LMO. The plane ticket home, the benefits...it doesn't matter what it is, we can enforce those.

So we can deal effectively with the employer and, because of our licensing scheme, we now can control the recruitment side of it too. It's really because we're aware of it before it occurs. They have to come to us before they even make application for the LMO document.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Justin Trudeau Liberal Papineau, QC

You were talking about sending out agents to interview and investigate. Obviously before this new legislation was brought in, you didn't have those capacities. I'm curious to find out, with the new legislation that was brought in about protecting vulnerable immigrants, and specifically recruited foreign workers, how much it cost. How much money came with the legislation for you to be able to set up an enforcement branch?

4:20 p.m.

Executive Director, Employment Standards Division, Manitoba Labour and Immigration, Government of Manitoba

Dave Dyson

I've always had an enforcement branch. This whole legislation is integrated into my employment standards branch. Manitoba has 1.2 million people. We have 600,000 workers and about 34,000 businesses. In my employment standards branch, I have about 35 investigators.

With this legislation, we received an additional five positions, two to handle the business registration, and three to deal with the investigation side, the enforcement side. What I've done is that I've used my existing resources in the employment standards side to set up a team of six people, with a manager, and for the most part they've been dealing almost full time with the worker recruitment issues.

We now believe that we're in a position where I can start moving those resources back into employment standards, because most of our illegitimate recruiters have left the province and are now working in other provinces. Our unanticipated problem now is that recruiters are bringing the workers into jurisdictions that don't have this type of legislation and are now bringing them into Manitoba. We've had numerous cases that we've dealt with in that regard.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Justin Trudeau Liberal Papineau, QC

Thank you, Mr. Dyson. You're highlighting one of the challenges that we have as federal regulators and legislators. We have to make sure that there are no movements like that possible.

It interests me... If you hadn't received the funding for an extra five people, you would have had to significantly cut back on other areas of enforcement in order to respond to the setting up of this. Is that right?

4:20 p.m.

Executive Director, Employment Standards Division, Manitoba Labour and Immigration, Government of Manitoba

Dave Dyson

Yes, but I'll go back to my statement that in employment standards our whole mandate is to protect vulnerable workers. This is clearly a vulnerable segment of our workforce, so if I hadn't received the resources, maybe I wouldn't have been able to do as good a job as we've done, but I think we would have still taken it on.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you, Mr. Dyson.

Mr. Plamondon and Madame Beaudin, do you have questions? If not, we'll move on to Dr. Wong.

October 27th, 2010 / 4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Alice Wong Conservative Richmond, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of you for coming here to shed light on what you've found and what you have practised.

I wanted to get a clarification. These questions may have already been asked, but perhaps because of time we did not get a full answer.

First, I'd like to address Mr. Kriek. You mentioned the fact that the bill should probably include the recruiters, but these recruiters are probably overseas. How would you suggest strengthening the rules regarding fraudulent immigration representation overseas? That has been around for some time.

4:20 p.m.

Cobus (Jacobus) Kriek

My intention was not to include the regulation of recruiters in Bill C-35. My intention was just to clearly identify what is the practice of immigration law or immigration law advice and to expand proposed section 91. I believe that recruitment is a function that should be dealt with by the provinces, not in federal legislation.

As for how to deal with overseas ghost agents practising immigration law, follow these two suggestions: have an intelligence system to follow those people and, once they enter Canada, prosecute them for their actions abroad. I think it would be very difficult for the Canadian government to go after these people right around the world. I don't think it's practical.