Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Oct. 27th, 2010

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond, BC]

What about doing like Manitoba? In Manitoba they have agreements with foreign governments to make sure that they also have a set of rules governing their recruiters out there, like in the Philippines. How would you consider that?

[Cobus (Jacobus) Kriek]

If there are resources to do that, I'm sure it's a possibility, but I have difficulty in seeing how they could go to 50 countries around and get agreements with all those countries. I think it would be hard.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond, BC]

It would be hard for us to do all of them, but at least we could start working with foreign countries overseas.

[Cobus (Jacobus) Kriek]

Yes, I agree.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond, BC]

The government has had many round tables with the stakeholders and also with victims of fraudulent immigration representation. How significant do you consider the issue of unscrupulous immigration consultants to be? Also, what kind of misconduct is most prevalent, according to your experience?

[Cobus (Jacobus) Kriek]

I'm not in a position to answer that. The CSIC regulator may be able to give more information to the second part of your question about how serious this is.

The biggest concern I have experienced is recruiters practising immigration law abroad and inside Canada. They also use the labour market opinion process to get access to employers. A recruiter in Alberta, let's say, would go to an employer in Saskatchewan and say, “I think I can obtain a labour market opinion for you”. That person probably has very little knowledge of immigration law, but uses this to move into the field of immigration.

In my view, recruiters trying to do immigration work inside and outside of Canada is my biggest concern.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond, BC]

So you're commenting on the fact that in order to stop that from happening, we do need to have stronger rules to discourage people from doing that.

I'd like also to have your opinion on this. The new bill we are suggesting right now includes all stages of the application, starting with filling out forms.

[Cobus (Jacobus) Kriek]

Yes.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond, BC]

What do you think of this being a necessity to be included? Also, if these people are not registered or certified and they charge a fee, do you think they should be ruled by this new bill?

[Cobus (Jacobus) Kriek]

I fully agree. I'm not sure if I understand the question correctly, but I fully agree that immigration law advice starts right at the beginning, when forms are completed, and even when assessments are done. The practising of immigration law should not start when an inquiry is made. It should start when consultation takes place with a client. If that is changed, then that will be a big step forward to prevent the unregulated practising of immigration law.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond, BC]

In other words, you do agree that the creation of this offence works to protect the integrity of the immigration system and also to protect the people participating in it?

[Cobus (Jacobus) Kriek]

Yes, for sure, I fully agree.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond, BC]

Right.

I have questions for Manitoba as well. Looking at the present bill, how would you see the federal government working hand-in-hand with your province in order to make our immigration system a good one and to attract good people to come into your province and also the whole nation?

[Fanny Levy]

We think they should complement each other, the provinces, and we also feel very strongly that all provinces should be on board. You've heard about what's happening right now, which is that there's more abuse of the system in some provinces, provinces that don't have legislation such as ours.

Also, all information-sharing agreements should be in place so we can collaborate and exchange information, not only with Citizenship and Immigration Canada, but with the RCMP, CBSA, Service Canada, etc. That has to be in place for sure.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond, BC]

Right.

Again, I'd like to ask your opinion on how we should actually work to prevent phony recruiters or recruiters who are not really registered or qualified to do the recruiting, both in the provincial nomination program and also in the federal programs.

[Dave Dyson]

Yes. I can almost repeat what Fanny said, which is that, prior to our legislation, I cannot remember us ever having a meeting with anybody from CIC or Service Canada.

The manager of my enforcement unit has weekly meetings with Service Canada, CBSA, and CIC, and we share concerns and we talk about issues. I firmly believe that's the answer. It's the communication and the sharing of the information, because it's a shared responsibility, and I don't believe that any one agency has the ability to deal with this problem.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Dr. Wong.

Ms. Levy and Mr. Dyson in Winnipeg, and Mr. Kriek here in Ottawa, I want to thank the three of you for participating with the committee and making your comments. You've been a big help. Thank you very much.

We will suspend.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

We're going to reconvene the meeting. We have two witnesses. One is here in Ottawa with us and the other is via video conference from Toronto.

The individual who is here in Ottawa is an immigration consultant from Ideal Canada.

Can I call you Selin Adam? I don't have to use that middle name?

In Toronto, we have Joel E. Tencer, who is an immigration lawyer and member of the Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants.

I welcome both of you to our committee.

Ms. Adam, you can speak first. You have up to seven minutes to make a presentation. Thank you.

[Selin Deravedisyan-Adam, Immigration Consultant, Ideal Canada, As an Individual]

Thank you.

I will do it in French, please.

My name is Selin Deravedisyan-Adam. I am here today as a full member of the CSIC, and I am also the president of the Canadian Migration Institute for Quebec. I am here to make a few points that I think are essential.

While you all know that the CSIC is a young organization, you need to be aware that the organization has nonetheless come a long way in less than six years. That process has resulted in the creation of an enormous machine and a solid structure and framework. If we compare the organization to a person, I might say it is at the developmental stage of adolescence. The CSIC is also not an entirely perfect organization. We are also here today to talk about that. If I can stay with the adolescence metaphor, we are going through the pimply teenager years.

Everyone criticizes. But we have to stay objective in our criticism, and most importantly be realistic. Even I have criticisms, as a member of the CSIC. For example, client services for members are virtually non-existent. When we ask for some simple administrative information, it is very hard to get a result. Do you think this is a valid reason, for example, to bad-mouth the CSIC? No, frankly, no. Nor is it a reason to dismantle an organization the size of the CSIC.

Why consider deregulating the profession? Why let other bodies seize the opportunity and wipe our profession off the map, if we may refer to a map? Why, with this bill, invite other organizations to apply? What purpose is there in this? Now that the CSIC has achieved a majority of its objectives, what we have to do is support it. Now is when we have to give it all the support it needs and stand behind it so it can move forward. We are not a long way off from maturity; the fruit is emerging. I concede that the fruit is sometimes unsightly, but we will get there. We are reaching maturity.

The CSIC and we, its members, since I am also a member, have taken on a Herculean job. Let's not forget that the government handed the Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants a minefield, and I would even say a sandpit, full of quicksand. But the CSIC has found its way, in spite of all the pitfalls. It has tried to sweep clean, to ward off the weeds, the infamous consultants you are judging today. Why should we throw the baby out with the bathwater? Why are we doing nothing to clean up the water, at least, and try to keep the lovely baby, that's healthy now and is going to continue to be?

The evidence of this is that today we have a board of directors that has diversified as a result of the various positions of the members who sit on it. So everyone is represented on that board.

Another point about the board of directors, it is also increasingly transparent. Why? Because there is a growing body of management policies, by adopting and applying strict rules, whether for discipline or for ethics. Certainly someone who does not want to comply with the rules and abide by the code of ethics and professional ethics has no business either in the CSIC or in any organization. They should absolutely not be working in immigration. This is a profession that calls for integrity, and I am hear today to attest to that.

Training is also a crucial point. In Quebec alone, for nearly a year, we have been taking training courses, one after another, day and evening workshops, all of it, to acquire skills, tried and tested professionalism on the part of everyone who calls themselves a certified member of the CSIC.

In the last year I have also observed that at the meetings and various events organized—not by me personally—there are more and more positive comments, rather than negative comments, being voiced. This is quite simply because there has been a real collective realization brought about by the new generation of consultants who are in practice and are members in good standing. In fact, there is a real sense of solidarity.

These people are fully aware of the directives and requirements of the CSIC.

I can tell you that the new generation does not feel not remotely concerned with the old disputes and tales, and the differences of opinion there may have been.

What gives me confidence is that in spite of the many criticisms voiced by some members about membership fees, for example, the CSIC also offers us a sound, working budget. On that point, I have never really heard any criticisms saying that we don't manage our affairs properly. We often hear that we charge high membership fees, but you can't have your cake and eat it. If we want to have an organization that will stay the course, that has a certain level of prestige and, most importantly, provides the public with a service, it has to have the resources to do that. So that is a sacrifice we have to make, as members, by paying the necessary membership fees, but we get what we are after.

In closing, I have two or three comments about the bill. Why did the government allow a transition period of several years when the CSIC was created?

The only result was confusion and animosity among the members and other recalcitrants who took advantage of the situation. In any event, those people were never members of the CSIC, and it is often the dissenting voices that are heard.

As well, did the CBSA not also have to play a more active role in “hunting down” crooked consultants?

And last, why use the term "consultant"? When I hear "crooked consultant" or something else, I almost feel insulted. I certainly do not see that situation as referring to me, but in terms of the bill, that label really has to be changed. They should be called either uncertified or illegal immigration representatives, call it what you want, or certified immigration “conseillers”. This word “consultant” should be banned. It's bad publicity, it puts out a bad image.

I can tell you that the people who get caught or fooled by these infamous crooked consultants, also call themselves or consultants or something else.

So I am proud to be a member of the CSIC, today, and I hope to give you as much information as I can provide.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you for your presentation, Ms. Adam, and that will come.

Mr. Tencer, thank you, sir. You have up to seven minutes.

[Joel E. Tencer, Immigration Consultant and Member, Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants, As an Individual]

Thank you very much.

I have a couple of preliminary comments.

My proper professional title is “Member of CSIC, the Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants”. I'm not an immigration lawyer nor am I a member of the law society. I do practise immigration and refugee law as a member of CSIC, just for the record, to clarify that.

Number two, yesterday, for the benefit of all of the members of your committee, I e-mailed to you my letter of August 10 that I sent to the Honourable Ken Dryden setting out my support of CSIC--which I'll refer to as “the society”--and why I support CSIC continuing to be the professional regulatory body. I sent that yesterday to Julie Prud'homme. I hope the members all have it and--

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Sir, just for clarification, the clerk does have it.

[Joel E. Tencer]

That's great.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

It has to be translated into French. Once that is done, the members of the committee will get it. They do not have it now. It has to be translated, but it will come.

Thank you.

[Joel E. Tencer]

Thank you.

In the over six years—it's about six and half—that the society, which is of course the Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants, has been in existence, they've made tremendous strides, as Ms. Adam has correctly stated.

They have taken their work very seriously as a professional regulatory body of all people who are not members of a provincial law society. They have put forward very comprehensive and detailed rules of professional conduct, for example, which all of us, as licensed members, are required to adhere to. It can be seen on their website, which is csic-scci.ca.

The rules are very sensitive for consumer protection; that's the primary mandate of the society. The rules require all of us as members to act professionally at all times and to be knowledgeable and skilful. For example, they forbid us to take on work that we're not experienced or skilful at. They define what improper conduct or professional misconduct means. They require all of us as members to prepare retainer agreements, for example, so that clients know what professional work they're getting from us and what the fee is. There are even advertising sections in the rules, which require us to advertise honestly and properly to the public.

Providing professional immigration and refugee services must be done properly and professionally and that's the main mandate of the society: to protect the public. They are vulnerable and need protection.

The society also has continual professional development seminars, which is part of the rules in that we are required as members, sir and committee members, to rack up a total of 40 professional points every two years. We must attend seminars or online videos and answer skill-testing questions, which keeps us up to date in all changes and amendments to the immigration regulations of Canada as well as the refugee regulations.

There is a strict complaints and discipline committee, and that is in order and is working very properly at the society's office in Toronto. There have been well over 200 immigration consultants who have required disciplining because they have run afoul of and have violated one or more rules of professional conduct, or they have run afoul of the act—by the act, I mean the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act of Canada. This committee—complaints and discipline—takes its very work very seriously, and if people need to be suspended, fined, or have their licence revoked, it has been done, and it continues to do so. The public is aware of this, and certainly complaints can go down to the society.

We are very strict about the public money as well. Any money given to us as licensed consultants is required to go into a designated bank account, called a client's account—as I call it—and all clients's moneys must go there. Moneys must not be touched or taken out until the professional services are rendered and invoices are prepared and sent to the client. Only then are we allowed to take any money from the client's bank account.

The society also has a compliance audit, whereby auditors who are employed by the society will do random spot checks—which is very important, as it is in any profession, whether it's lawyers or engineers or doctors—to make certain that we run our practice in a proper way. They will check our files and make sure that our backup files are done properly and that our bank accounts are in good order. The society has just set up a compensation fund recently, whereby if a consultant is convicted of a criminal conviction and there was a monetary loss to the client, a compensation fund is there and available and a monetary loss can be compensated to the client.

This is a fulfillment of conditions that the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration has required the society to do. The society has fulfilled every single condition that the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration has required them to do.

There is also errors and omissions insurance, sir. If there is negligence, we are required, of course, to own up to that. We pay membership fees every year and we pay errors and omissions insurance premiums every year to cover any negligence on our part. Negligence can occur from time to time.

Any amendments to the immigration and refugee laws are sent to us immediately by e-mail. I get e-mails on a regular basis, as I'm sure all licensed members do, advising us of changes to Citizenship and Immigration Canada operational policy and proposed changes to the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act so we can render a very proper, professional service to the public. That is most important.

Sir, annual meetings are held by the society, which we all attend regularly online. Financial statements are given to us every year and they've been audited by outside auditors. Every year, the auditors have given a positive, clean record that the financial statements of the society are proper and everything is done properly.

Membership in the society is not given willy-nilly, sir. We now have to pass a designated comprehensive immigration practitioner course--