Citizenship and Immigration Committee on April 26th, 2012

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I didn't say two time spans. I said there will be an incremental increase in the biometrics requirement. We anticipate that as of 2013 we will begin the biometrics requirement for an initial tranche of higher risk countries, and then over the course of the next few years it will gradually be rolled out for all other countries.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Thank you, Minister.

I'm really going to get a little stricter with the times, because we want to be able to get a couple more speakers in. I know people are very anxious.

We'll go over to Mr. Weston for seven minutes.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you.

This has to be one of the most engaging discussions we've had in this committee. Thank you, Minister.

We heard the term from the chair that there were some un-Canadian aspects to some of the models used. If anybody here for a minute believed that what we were doing was un-Canadian, we would be stopping, we would be reviewing, and we would be challenging it. We're all keen to better understand what's in the bill.

My assessment of what we're doing here is that it's really, among other things, in the name of compassion. What we're doing is making it easier, better, and faster for legitimate claimants to come to our shores.

You used the example of the Iranian who comes with the scars on his or her back. I'd just like you to elaborate on that. Are we getting it right and we're in fact expanding our trademark compassion around the world?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I hope so. I regret that the critics of our approach have not even bothered to give a nod in the direction of our enhancement of refugee protection that is part of this broader package. When we launched Bill C-11 I announced a 20% increase in the number of resettled refugees that we would accept worldwide. We already accept one out of every ten. We're going to be the number one destination for resettled refugees worldwide per capita following this increase. We're increasing the refugee assistance program by 20%, and that's not coincidental. We're doing that concurrently with these reforms to the asylum system to send the message that we, as a country, can do more to help bona fide refugees, real victims of persecution, ethnic cleansing, and warfare, if we focus our resources on real refugees and not those who seek to abuse our generosity.

Second, we are for the first time creating a full fact-based appeal that will be available to the vast majority of asylum claimants who are rejected at their initial hearing. That means that for claimants from countries generally known to be or could be sources of persecution, those who don't get positive decisions initially will have a full fact-based appeal. This is what so-called refugee advocates have long demanded. This will take what is already considered a model system and add even additional protection for those who might have a negative decision at first instance.

I don't just “think” this, but objectively I believe this reinforces our longstanding humanitarian obligation to refugees.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

From my experience, I know this is not a theoretical exercise for you. You know many of the people who are waiting in those camps. When I was in Iraq, I was hearing about your knowledge of the refugees who were in other countries waiting to come here. So this is something specific and categorical—

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

We have a colleague here who has talked about how I highlighted the smuggling operation on the MV Sun Sea. Absolutely, that was because we have to take a zero tolerance approach to that dangerous commerce of smuggling.

But I can tell you this. On dozens of occasions, I have visited with resettled refugees we have welcomed to Canada, like the 4,000 Karen Burmese whom we resettled, and the some 4,000 Iraqi refugees who have come to Canada each year in the past three years. I've visited with literally thousands of resettled refugees who have benefited from this country's generosity.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Minister, we're talking about real-time assessments, and let me give you a real-time response to some of what you're saying. This is from the head of Tourism Whistler. While you were speaking earlier, I asked whether she supported biometrics. Her response was that she was in a meeting with Tourism Vancouver but they discussed their collective position, which is that, yes, biometrics is good as long as it speeds up processing time rather than slowing it down. So that's a very real-time response from them.

We are about to interview more than 60 guests who will be speaking about the bill. I wonder if you have any thoughts on the kinds of things that would help you in terms of the kinds of questions we should be asking witnesses, who will come from every imaginable kind of corner.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

This goes back to the earlier answer I gave. I would strongly encourage you to consider inviting representatives of some of the European countries that have become the major sources of asylum claims in Canada to get their sense about what's going on and how we can address those patterns. You may also want to invite representatives of the Government of Ontario. The European governments believe that the fact that claimants can immediately quality for welfare benefits upon arrival in Ontario is one of the major draw factors. I have asked the Ontario government to consider putting in some eligibility period before foreign nationals can collect welfare payments in this province. I would be happy to ask other provinces to do the same. Removing some of the pull factors will go a long way to stopping large waves of unfounded claims.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

You gave a very interesting, specific example of compassion for the Iranian refugee claimant. What about some examples of people who are part of the criminal element and whom we might have excluded had we had engaged biometrics when they sought to come to Canada?

Minister, if you would prefer, we could defer that to Mr. MacDonald.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I have a list of some examples I should share with the committee later, with nine cases I think of people like Mr. Esron Laing and David Wilson, known as the Yo-Yo Bandits. They were convicted of armed robbery and forceable confinement. Each of them was deported three times and kept coming back.

There's Anthony Hakim Saunders, who was convicted of assault and drug trafficking. He was deported 10 times. That's 10 times. He kept coming back into the country either illegally, through fake documents, or both. Edmund Ezemo was convicted on more than 30 counts, including theft and fraud. He was deported eight times, which meant he kept coming back.

The biometrics requirement will mean that criminals like them can't cheat their way back into the country with fake documents.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

So we have specific examples of where the system can be improved by biometrics on the compassionate side and the security side. I'm really looking forward to seeing more about this bill.

Again, thank you for being with us today.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Thank you very much. I'm now going to go over to Madame Groghué.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would still like to clarify something about refugees. I just wanted to mention that not all refugees have scars and that, in some designated countries, people have made different choices in terms of gender or sexual orientation.

How will Bill C-31 cater to those refugees?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

If someone seeks asylum on the grounds of well-founded fear of persecution because of sexual orientation, they will be entitled to the same hearing, on the merits of their claim. If there is valid evidence that their fear of persecution because of sexual orientation is justified, they will be accepted into Canada. There is no change to the bill in that respect. I have to add that I work with gay and lesbian organizations to assist gay and lesbian refugees from around the world, especially from Iran, to settle in Canada.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Under section 27 of Bill C-31, the minister may, on request of a designated foreign national, order their release from detention if, in the minister's opinion, exceptional circumstances exist that warrant the release.

What are the exceptional circumstances that warrant the release? Could you give us some examples?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

The minister would look at each case individually, on the request of the immigrant, if there are urgent or humanitarian reasons, for example. The minister would then consider a claim for release from detention. But the real purpose of detention is to identify the person. If the person is identified, there is no real reason for extending their detention.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Under the provisions of Bill C-31, even if the claim for refugee protection of a foreign national is accepted and they are declared refugees under the convention, they may not apply to become permanent residents.

So what will the status of designated foreign nationals be if they are recognized as refugees?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

They will have the status of protected individuals, which means they will have legal status in Canada. They will have access to some social services and to a work permit, but they will not obtain permanent resident status for five years, after the IRB makes a positive decision.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

You have one more minute.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

A designated foreign national who receives refugee protection will have to meet with an immigration officer, in compliance with the regulations.

Why would designated foreign nationals who have just received refugee protection have to meet with immigration officers?

[Les Linklater]

When individuals have temporary status and the conditions in their countries of origin change, the intent is to send them back to their countries of origin. In other words, there needs to be a framework under which those individuals can describe their personal circumstances to the CBSA officers so that they can be sent back to their countries of origin if the situation changes.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

You have 35 seconds.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

In terms of losing refugee status because of a change in circumstances, the Abdullah case ruling by the Court of Justice of the European Union stresses the idea that the change has to be durable and lasting.

Which neutral body can decide on the lasting nature of the changes and what action will the claimants be able to take?

[Les Linklater]

As I understand the question, Madam Chair, if the conditions in the country of origin change, for example, from civil war to reconciliation once peace is restored, the conditions may improve to such an extent that it would be possible to return to that country.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Thank you very much. Your time is up.

I'm going to adjourn the meeting. I want to thank my colleagues for their patience. This is my first meeting as vice-chair, and I've done the best I can.

I also want to thank the minister for coming before the committee and the colleagues he brought with him. I certainly hope, Minister, if we should happen to need further clarification from you, you would be willing to come back at a future date.