Citizenship and Immigration Committee on April 26th, 2012

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Very quickly?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I cannot speak for him, but I don't see why not.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you very much.

The Canada Border Services Agency did some studies showing that the changes to Canadian legislation will increase detention and the deportation of bogus refugees, while changing the mandate of the refugee board.

Mr. Minister, based on your estimates, how many additional detentions will this new legislation entail?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

There are two parts to the bill. In terms of the asylum system, we don't think that there will be an increase in the percentage of claimants who will be in detention. In other words, the percentage will stay the same.

As for the smuggling of illegal refugees, it is hard to predict, because we don't know how many immigrants will arrive under circumstances designated illegal.

Would CBSA like to complement that answer on detention?

[Michael MacDonald]

What the minister is saying is correct. Canada overall has a multi-phased approach to combatting human smuggling and the criminal networks overseas, and that whole idea is built on the pillar of prevention.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I am sorry, but you are not answering my question. I don't have much time and I cannot listen to a speech.

What is the expected increase? Can you tell us how many new detainees there will be?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

We have estimates for the number of people who will be in detention under the new system. We can provide you with the figure, but I don't have it with me right now.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you very much.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

It is not a major difference.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

What will happen if the number of detainees is greater than the number of spots available in the detention centres for immigrants? Is there a plan to send them somewhere else?

[Les Linklater]

Sometimes, if there is a movement like the one you have described, the Canada Border Services Agency gets the provinces and territories involved to determine whether there are enough spots in provincial facilities to accommodate that movement of people.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Have you consulted the provincial authorities in question? Have you told them that they might be called upon at some point as a result of Bill C-31?

[Les Linklater]

As the minister said, there is some flexibility. Under the current circumstances, it is difficult to predict when a situation like that will come up.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

That does not answer my question.

[Les Linklater]

I understand, but the agency and ourselves are on good terms with the provinces and the territories. That will allow us to ensure that the provinces have the capacity to detain those people.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Have the provinces been consulted? For example, if a ship comes in with 500 refugees whom you decide to detain and you send 300 of them to the provinces, will the provinces be notified? Do they agree to take the extra people?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

When we had 500 illegal immigrants on the west coast 18 months ago, the CBSA worked with the Province of British Columbia to place some of them in provincial centres. So we obviously have to work with the provinces.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Are the provinces reimbursed for that?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Yes. I think that the average cost is about $150 per night.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

I'm sorry, Mr. Giguère, but your time is up.

Now I will turn it over to Mr. Opitz, please.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm going to go back to Mr. MacDonald, because we only had a short period of time with him before. I want to explore a little more some of the safety considerations from a public safety point of view in terms of fraudulent smuggling and trafficking events, and what they mean to our society, what they mean to the immigration system and its integrity, and certainly what they mean to those people I described earlier and the threats to them inside and outside this country.

The minister also said that some of the smugglers, when it's in their interest, will dispose of these people. Sometimes, when they are caught on the high seas, they simply throw the people overboard to cover their tracks. That's obviously inhumane and criminal. Can you further elaborate on some of the threats?

One thing we didn't talk about is the possible terrorist threat, as well. While 99.9% of the people, one way or another, whether they're coming here illegally or not, may want to try to come to Canada for ultimately good purposes, there's always that small percentage of people who don't, and they're here to do us harm.

Can you talk about that, sir?

[Michael MacDonald]

I can, and I will be brief.

Picking up on what we were discussing previously, what's unique about the organizations that smuggle people around the world is that they tend to operate and change their tactics very quickly. They're very adept at responding to any efforts that are made. So again, prevention efforts overseas are key. You take not just one type of preventive activity but multiple types. These are seasoned criminals.

Now, some of these networks are connected, and we believe that they are connected with certain terrorist organizations. The whole purpose of terrorist organizations is to move their individuals around the globe if they need to, and a smuggling network is a prime way to move them around.

The other thing about the smuggling networks that pose a threat to Canada and the integrity of our borders is that oftentimes the smugglers will recruit crew members. They will recruit various facilitators along the way. And at times, in the case of a mass arrival of vessels at the border, the crew, who are helping to commit a criminal act, will mingle with the refugee claimants, and it's very hard to distinguish who those people are.

Clearly, Canada has very strong law enforcement and intelligence relationships with our key allies and a lot of countries around the world. We've gained a lot of experience in how to conduct our prevention efforts overseas to attack the criminal networks and those who are aligned with terrorists, from, in particular, Australia. We routinely share information and intelligence about the networks.

What happens is that the smugglers ultimately decide where the person goes, despite what is ever promised up front. The smugglers can say that they will send someone to this location, but things happen on the high seas and things happen around the world, so the smugglers will send someone somewhere else. This has caused us to ensure that we have extremely robust relationships with a lot of the countries around the world, because these are joint threats. This is a global phenomenon. This is, in effect, a global threat. It threatens everyone's sovereignty in that regard.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

In fact, referring to criminal network syndicates or whatever you want to call them, it was The Globe and Mail not long ago that pointed out that criminality across the globe is the world's twentieth-largest economy—criminal enterprise. That's incredible.

So what are some of the things we're doing, for example, with Thailand and the United States? What sorts of things are we doing with our allies to help prevent this and to share that data, let's say in Canada-U.S. terms?

[Michael MacDonald]

Actually, I would take it broader than Canada and the U.S.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Okay.