Evidence of meeting #39 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was children.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sharalyn Jordan  Member of the Board, Rainbow Refugee Committee
Christine Morrissey  Founder and Member of the Board, Rainbow Refugee Committee
Michael Deakin-Macey  Past President, Board of Directors, Victoria Immigrant and Refugee Centre Society, As an Individual
John Amble  As an Individual
Richard Stanwick  President Elect, Canadian Paediatric Society
Glynis Williams  Executive Director, Action Réfugiés Montréal
Jenny Jeanes  Program Coordinator, Action Réfugiés Montréal
Marie Adèle Davis  Executive Director, Canadian Paediatric Society
Gina Csanyi-Robah  Executive Director, Roma Community Centre
Maureen Silcoff  Representative, Roma Community Centre

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Valeriote Liberal Guelph, ON

Dr. Stanwick, I have to say that you have given an incredibly compelling reason why this committee and this government need to revisit the sections respecting detention. My wife is a psychotherapist, and she's always talking to me about the attachment theory and the consequences of severing that attachment at an early age.

I think we're willing to sacrifice all of that because there's an element in our society that, for some reason, this government feels the need to appease. This element says we can't allow people who may not be worthy of being here to enjoy the same amenities as those who are worthy of having those amenities—the families that are legitimate refugees. They say we can't allow them to enjoy those same amenities, so we'll let everyone suffer rather than allow those amenities to be enjoyed.

Yet I think there are a lot of refugees elsewhere who would be prepared to live in these circumstances of detention for a year—live in these circumstances of severing relationships for almost five years after that, not able to become residents, not able to sponsor others.

Do you see that? Are there people in other countries who would be willing to make that sacrifice and live in these conditions? Does that concern you?

5:20 p.m.

Executive Director, Action Réfugiés Montréal

Glynis Williams

It certainly concerns me, and I'm not sure that we can make those assumptions. Just because our detention centre is clean and bright, it's still a prison-like environment. It's not a place for a child. The UNHCR has made that clear.

We have an assumption that people in refugee camps are in horrendous circumstances, but sometimes when you are with your family, abnormal situations become somewhat normal. Canada's not abnormal. We have the capacity to allow people to go before a refugee board, to be determined to be a refugee or not, and then to learn whether they can stay or move on.

There is no reason why we should be detaining people. The number of people who are claimants was brought up earlier. I've been around a long time in this field, over 20 years. We had much higher numbers of refugee claimants in the early nineties than we even have currently, and people were passed through the system quicker.

I think there really is, as the Auditor General has said, a problem of resourcing. We do need—as Mr. Menegakis has said—to move this system forward faster. You do not need to detain people, and in fact you can be putting them in a much worse situation trying to prove their claim.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Valeriote Liberal Guelph, ON

Let's speak of a few solutions. The bill allows only 15 days for a basis of claim to be submitted. I was a lawyer before this, and I know how difficult it is to put a meaningful case together. It's not just one or two quick meetings with a client who has to seek legal aid and look up records. Under the circumstances of detention or elsewhere, it's very difficult to do that.

Would you suggest that they allow extensions of time if people are demonstrably making an effort to put their case together? Do you have any suggestion?

5:25 p.m.

Program Coordinator, Action Réfugiés Montréal

Jenny Jeanes

In our brief we recommend sticking to a timeline that more resembles the current 28 days for what's called a personal information form. I heard the witnesses from the previous session talk about 30 days—15 days in our experience working with detainees would be, for many, far too short.

The form has to be submitted in French or English. Many of the people we meet don't have any French or English, or if they do, it's spoken. They certainly can't write. They need to write in Farsi, Tamil, or Arabic, and to find a lawyer.

There's a lot of cynicism about lawyers in all fields. In the refugee field, I say to detainees all the time that the importance of a lawyer is that while they know their own story, the lawyer knows about, for example, what's called a “nexus”—making a nexus with the convention, being able to show the elements of your claim that make it clear that it relates to refugee protection, which is an individualized determination. It's not general. People often misunderstand that. A lot of people see refugees as a catch-all term, but it's a very specific, individualized determination, and 15 days to get those elements on paper is just too short. It's true that 28 days can still be too short, but that's the current system and we feel it's more reasonable.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you, Ms. Jeanes.

Ms. James.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Welcome to our guests.

I'm just going to clarify and just give a little bit of a background. There has been some discussion here. All guests or witnesses have talked about detention and how it's unfair and whatever the other cases are. I just want to specify that under this particular bill there is no mandatory detention of all persons for one year. I just want to clarify that. That has come up multiple times, not just in this hour.

Additionally, once someone receives a positive claim with the IRB, bona fide, legitimate refugees who have come here to seek a better way of life will be released from detention. Also, I want to just throw this number out. All three of you here are talking about the same issue, but it's really less than 1% of the people who come to Canada as refugees. I just want to put that on the table as well. Again, until their claim is heard and they are classified as a refugee, they are only asylum claimants. They are not bona fide, legitimate refugees in Canada.

Additionally to that, only asylum claimants whose identifies cannot be established, who are a security risk to Canada—you can recognize the importance as a government to make sure we are detaining people who may be a security risk to Canadians—or are suspected architects of a criminal activity can be held longer under this particular bill.

Having said that, I want to direct my first question to Dr. Stanwick. I commend you for what you do. It's interesting to speak to someone directly who was at the Sun Sea, who processed claimants, who dealt with some of the children there.

I have something here. There were 46 persons under the age of 16, and six were unaccompanied minors, so without parents whatsoever.

I don't want to sound harsh, but in your statement you mentioned that 10% of the people who may come in by irregular arrivals could have security issues. Then, you said the other 90% are probably okay. Can I just ask this question before you answer that question? You suggested two options. One, the child should not be in detention. Under this bill, they will not be in detention. The second option was, instead of sending them into child care or with a guardian, that the parent should be able to be with that child out in a community, integrated, and so forth.

But let me ask you a question. If there's a possibility that 10% of the people who are on that ship or come in by irregular means are one of the people who we can't identify, and they also claim to be the parent of a child, or are the legitimate parents of a child, should they be released into the general population without proper identification? Although you may say it's not a likely situation, without knowing who these people are, without knowing the risks that they may or may not pose to Canadians, in general, or as our nation, as a responsible government, we need to identify who these people are.

5:30 p.m.

President Elect, Canadian Paediatric Society

Dr. Richard Stanwick

I leave that, in fact, to the elected decision-makers. We want to provide you with evidence. The same rationale was used to incarcerate the Japanese in World War II because they were a threat— we could lose the war because of this—and meaningful action was taken.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

On a point of order, I understand that references are trying to be made to bring familiarity to the issues that are trying to be delivered by witnesses. But continually referring back to issues of World War II—the era of Hitler and the issues around the extermination of Jews—as somehow being part of what we're trying to accomplish here, I would just respectfully request that if you are going to use metaphors to try to make them more analogous to the issues we're discussing.

5:30 p.m.

President Elect, Canadian Paediatric Society

Dr. Richard Stanwick

It's not a metaphor. It's the fact that we put individuals in detention because there was a perceived—

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Dr. Stanwick—

5:30 p.m.

NDP

Sadia Groguhé NDP Saint-Lambert, QC

Please, Mr. Chair.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Just hold on.

Have you finished?

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

Yes.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

You're next.

We'll have a little fight here, Dr. Stanwick, and then we will come back to you.

5:30 p.m.

NDP

Sadia Groguhé NDP Saint-Lambert, QC

A point of order, Mr. Chair. I would like to point out that the witnesses are responsible for their testimony. We are not here to put words in their mouth or to intervene because they refer to this or that aspect of the situation. The witnesses are here to give their testimony.

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Valeriote Liberal Guelph, ON

I just wanted to echo and repeat what my friend is saying. It's up to the witness to give clarity and give context, historically. If we don't learn from history, then we have learned nothing, Mr. Chair. I think the witness needs to be able to be able to say exactly what is on his mind.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

I agree with you too.

Go ahead, sir.

We have someone else, I'm sorry.

Ms. James.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

Thank you.

As a point of clarification, perhaps I can rephrase the question so it'll be a simple yes or no answer and we can move on. I don't want to cause disruption in this committee.

Let me just rephrase that question.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

The only problem was that I think he was in the middle of his answer.

5:30 p.m.

President Elect, Canadian Paediatric Society

Dr. Richard Stanwick

In fact, my answer may satisfy the—

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Mr. Valeriote, please.

5:30 p.m.

President Elect, Canadian Paediatric Society

Dr. Richard Stanwick

I may satisfy your question.

Those decisions about policy and what poses risk are made by our government. The mistake we made is that we separated the men from the women. We didn't provide for education. The circumstances at that time were suboptimal and they had an impact on the health of those children. I'm just asking that—

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

I understand. You've given us an historical background, but—

5:30 p.m.

President Elect, Canadian Paediatric Society

Dr. Richard Stanwick

No, no, no, it—

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

Just a minute, I understand completely.