Citizenship and Immigration Committee on June 11th, 2013

[An hon. member]

[Inaudible—Editor]

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Absolutely.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Colleagues—

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

[Inaudible—Editor]...point of order.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Mr. Dykstra, I had picked up my gavel, I had hit it, and you carried on anyway.

Let me remind colleagues....

Ms. Freeman, let us hear.... Ms. Sitsabaiesan was afforded full respect while she made her statement of privilege—it was after a little bit of a reminder, but she was. Ms. James is going to get that same respect that was later on showed to your privilege motion.

Ms. James, go ahead.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you.

For me to sit here and hear someone in this committee play the victim card as a woman when I know very well that every single person on this committee is treated equally...it's embarrassing. As a strong Conservative woman in this committee who stands up for the rights of women across my riding and across Canada, I cannot believe that the member from the NDP played the victim card because she felt her feelings were hurt.

We're dealing with a bill that deals with terrorism, and the real victims of crime are those who have died...in fact, we've had witnesses here in this committee. Mr. Bal Gupta was a witness whose wife died in the Air India bombing. That's the real victim of crime—

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Ms. James.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

—not someone who feels that their feelings have been hurt.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Ms. James, this is not a point of order.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

It’s absolutely outrageous, to sit in this committee, when we're dealing with terrorism—

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Ms. James, this is not a point of order.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

—and have to listen to this nonsense from across the way.

I am a strong woman who is proud to be in this Conservative caucus where we are all treated equally.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Order.

I want to remind members of this committee that when the chair hits the gavel, it means that the chair is going to speak and is asking for the members to listen.

I sought advice, and the speech you made, Ms. James, is not a point of order. As the chair, I have a right to interrupt something when it is not what it purports to be. You started off by saying that this was a point of order, and that was not a point of order.

I would remind people that it's the chair who is in charge of this meeting, and the chair sets the rules, guided by the clerk and our rules and procedures. When somebody says it's a point of order and it is not a point of order, the chair is going to interrupt the speaker. If I have to, I will adjourn the meeting, if I am not going to get people respecting how a meeting is being run.

I don't want to keep having this conversation over and over again, but once again, we're running this meeting according to the rules, and everybody will get a chance to say their piece according to the rules. You do not get to make a lengthy speech when you are not on a point of order and get to call it a point of order, just as Ms. Sitsabaiesan did not get to claim privilege, because once I heard, I made the ruling based on what I had heard.

It is exactly the same rule in the House. The Speaker in the House does not allow a point of debate on a point of order that goes on to something else. You get to make your point of order, not to debate and talk about other things.

I'm now going to call the meeting back to order.

Ms. James, you may continue.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I apologize if I was very passionate about what I was speaking about. It's a very passionate issue to me.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

I appreciate that, Ms. James.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

That's not my point of clarification. I just want to understand what I am to do to make sure that I am not categorized with the member opposite, who claims to be a victim. I just want to make sure for the record, as a woman on this committee, that those who may be listening realize that I'm here to do a parliamentary job representing my constituents and am certainly not considering myself to be a victim in this committee. I want to know how to get that across.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Ms. James, you have lots of opportunity to do that. Just because one member claims something or says something does not automatically stick to you or attribute it to you.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

You will get lots of opportunities to say those things in venues other than this, but for the sake of this committee and the topic we're here to study, let's make sure that we stick to the rules for this committee.

Mr. Weston, I believe you have a point of order.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

It's a point of privilege, actually.

I think that as things get rambunctious this evening, and they will, we will all rise to that challenge. You've done a good job, Madam Chair, of putting into perspective that when we start exchanging allegations about treading on equality rights and things such as that we are crossing over a certain boundary. I would like us all to stay within a certain boundary.

In other words, for those of us who take equality rights really seriously—in my own case, having set up a foundation that made that the centre, the Canadian Constitution Foundation—and I'm surrounded by colleagues on both sides who take those things really seriously, those rights aren't to be trivialized. If we make allegations that may in some minds seem wild or specious or groundless, that trivializes the whole notion of equality. I don't think anybody wants to do that.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Thank you very much.

What I'm going to do now is go back to Madame Groguhé. She's going to go back to speaking on the motion.

Once again, I want to remind people of a level of behaviour and decorum that is required. The chair, if I find things are getting out of line, is going to end the meeting. I'm just giving everybody fair notice of that.

I'm going to go to Madame Groguhé.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I will thus go back to what I was saying about the imposition of an in camera meeting, which, coming from this Conservative majority, is certainly regrettable but not surprising. It is perfectly representative of the attitude that prevails both in the House and in committee, especially during the study of Bill C-425.

This study has been hampered by the government's will to considerably amend the content and scope of the bill, which was orchestrated by the Minister of Citizenship, Immigration and Multiculturalism, who dictated his amendments to the committee, and these amendments were then introduced with no changes by his parliamentary secretary. The main consequence of this was to transform a private member's bill into a government bill, and that is the gist of the matter, which is why we were so concerned about this procedure. Indeed, the procedure seeking to broaden the scope of this bill raised many questions.

Given the refusal of the committee chair to recognize that these amendments were in order, the committee thus had to submit a report, without the consent of the opposition, calling on the scope of Bill C-425 to be broadened in order to be able to impose the amendments of the minister. A point of privilege was raised concerning this report, and this is what I stated at that time, that is, April 30. But for...

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

A point of order.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

The vice-chair has left her chair to get a glass of water.

Do you have a point of order?

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Madam Chair—