Evidence of meeting #14 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was women.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ryhan Mansour  Manager, Policy, Labour Market Access and Client - Centered Program Policy, Integration / FCRO Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Robert Orr  Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
David Manicom  Director General, Immigration Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Angela Gawel  Director General, International Region, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

My time may be running out. Let me ask you a related question, which you may be able to answer.

Of all the spouses who apply to enter the country, what percentage is turned down because it is your view that it is a marriage of convenience?

4:05 p.m.

Director General, Immigration Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

David Manicom

Order of scale, it's about 15% or so.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Thank you.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Mr. Leung.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Chungsen Leung Conservative Willowdale, ON

Thank you to the officials.

It's a very delicate question to ask but I'll address this from a different facet. That is an examination of how good our database is and how we can start building that database to be more proactive about this. Therefore, we need to look into the culture, the country of origin, the ethnic origin, the national origin, the religious background, and perhaps the lack of English skills.

If you start developing this type of database—and you can say it's almost racial profiling—would that give us a better tool to identify these marriages of convenience, as we move forward?

Let me also take you into a further situation. I understand that in China, India, South Asia, the going rate right now for a marriage of convenience is about $50,000: $10,000 for the local guy to handle the wedding, $10,000 for the Canadian immigration consultant or lawyer, and $30,000 for the spouse who's prepared to do it. It costs about $50,000 for people who want to go into this.

How do we build a better database? How can we be more proactive?

4:05 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Robert Orr

Mr. Chair, I think it's an interesting question and I think it's one that we deal with in trying to come to terms with this issue.

As we've tried to demonstrate, we have taken a number of measures. They are resulting in various elements: getting tips from the CBSA, from our call centre, having people contact them about situations where there are difficulties. We are getting more and more information about it working also with the community associations and situations they would bring to our attention. There are a variety of different ways where I think we are getting more information and getting a better handle on the nature of the problem, and more importantly, how to deal with it.

4:10 p.m.

Director General, Immigration Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

David Manicom

I'd add that I think it is important not to link marriages of convenience in a direct way with vulnerability. Certainly, some marriages of convenience could lead to vulnerability, but there's no interplay, if you will, between marriages of convenience and forced marriage, or those types of practices.

Like my colleagues at the table, I've worked in many different countries and marriages of convenience, whether individually organized or more organized scams, are pretty common in almost all our source countries. More specific cultural practices, which may lead to a higher incidence of things like forced marriages or polygamy and other types, are somewhat more culturally specific, although we have to be cautious about that too. Marriages of convenience were a big problem in Russia, Pakistan, India, and China when I served in all those countries, and certainly in South America and Latin America. It's a pretty broad problem, if you will.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Chungsen Leung Conservative Willowdale, ON

Perhaps you could be a little more clear about marriages of convenience versus arranged marriages. Arranged marriages in a lot of cultures are quite an acceptable practice, whereas marriages of convenience are driven more by the economics of immigration and so on. Perhaps you could share with me some of your experiences on this.

4:10 p.m.

Director General, Immigration Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

David Manicom

I don't think there is any link between marriages of convenience and arranged marriages.

The officers working abroad work within the local cultural norms. They understand the local cultural norms. They often have very specific training about local cultural norms. There are many relationships that go outside local cultural norms and are perfectly genuine, but you have to work within that context.

Arranged marriages, in our experience, are not particularly a problem from the point of view of determining whether or not it's a marriage of convenience. You have marriages of convenience detection challenges in cultures where you don't have arranged marriages.

When one is adjudicating the intent of the parties concerned, it is being done within a local cultural framework to the best of one's ability.

Detecting marriages of convenience clearly, I think everyone would understand, is not an exact science. It's a judgment call.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Chungsen Leung Conservative Willowdale, ON

Are the front-line workers in the CBSA or the visa office local hires? Are they more attuned to these issues versus immigration officers who are trained and sent from Canada? Do you hire front-line workers locally to do that type of work, having both the language capability and the cultural sensitivity to interview the prospective immigrants?

February 26th, 2014 / 4:10 p.m.

Angela Gawel Director General, International Region, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Yes, we do. We hire both locally engaged officers who speak the local languages and are familiar with the local cultures and norms, as well as our Canada-based officers who, as my colleague mentioned, do receive training, cultural sensitivity training, and training in the local culture as well. Whether they are Canadian or local officers, they are sensitized to those norms and to what to look for when trying to determine if a marriage is a genuine one.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Chungsen Leung Conservative Willowdale, ON

I will come back to my first question. Is there a database kept of these marriages of convenience and so on, so that we can track overall what our experience is vis-à-vis the other countries that are taking in a large group of immigrants?

4:10 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Robert Orr

What we do keep track of is those who have applied and at the front end we'd have a very clear idea of how many applications we would have refused and the basis for that refusal. We do have that information very clearly established.

As we've said, it's about a 15% refusal rate worldwide, but that's for the whole gamut of possible reasons for refusal.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Chungsen Leung Conservative Willowdale, ON

Do you feel that we have enough database to be proactive in our actions in how we select?

4:10 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Robert Orr

In terms of what we are doing in terms of the selection work, I think it's quite robust.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you.

Ms. Sitsabaiesan.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Rathika Sitsabaiesan NDP Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

I thank our officials for being back with us again.

Since we're talking about marriages of convenience, maybe I'll start in that vein.

Do you know the number of marriages of convenience that we've had on an annual basis over the last five or ten years?

4:15 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Robert Orr

Do we have the numbers of that? I think it's about 33%.

4:15 p.m.

Director General, International Region, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Angela Gawel

Bad faith, 32%....

4:15 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Robert Orr

It is 32% where we would quantify sort of bad faith situations.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Rathika Sitsabaiesan NDP Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

If you could provide the raw numbers as well to the clerk of the committee, that would be great.

4:15 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Robert Orr

Certainly, we can provide that to the clerk.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Rathika Sitsabaiesan NDP Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Maybe the annual figures for over the last 10 years, please.

My second comment that will lead to a question is about the tip line you mentioned, Mr. Orr. I don't remember how many comments you had from people.

I had to hold the hand of one of my constituents as she cried. She was here from another country because she left a very violent situation in her home country and was living with her new spouse here. She was told that she was in a marriage of convenience here and was sent back to a violent situation in another country. That was about a year ago.

Two days from now, another one of my constituents, who is here on a refugee claim, will be deported because she has been told that she is not a real refugee. She is being sent back to the country where her husband, the father of her two children, is very abusive. I saw the daughter's leg and there has been an iron burn on the child's leg. This child is being sent back to certain abuse.

What happens in situations like that? Do we have anything to prevent these types of removals of women and children from this country, who have come here seeking our safety, and we are sending them away to certain violence and abuse?

4:15 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Robert Orr

Mr. Chair, obviously I can't respond to a specific situation and there are going to be other factors involved there, but individuals do have the opportunity, through the Immigration and Refugee Board, to make an asylum claim, which is heard clearly. In fact, between 2010 and 2012, the Immigration and Refugee Board received about 600 claims that were based on forced marriages. It is an issue with which the IRB has some familiarity.

In terms of the removal after the process, I think you'd be better to put your question to Canada Border Services Agency, which is responsible for that aspect of things.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Rathika Sitsabaiesan NDP Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Thank you, Mr. Orr.

I don't know if you have it with you, but if you could give it to us later that would be also useful, but what proportion of spousal sponsorship applications that we've had have been subjected to the conditional permanent residency since it came into effect in 2012?