Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 31st, 2015

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Mr. Leung.

[Chungsen Leung, Conservative, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for your attendance at this session.

We understand that the Speech from the Throne indicates that the government needs to strengthen the prevention of violence against women and children, and so on.

What I'd like you to elaborate on is the very distinct difference between what we call a barbaric cultural practice and someone's hiding behind religious freedom. Perhaps you can elaborate and share with us your thoughts on how we make the distinction between someone hiding behind religious freedom and a barbaric cultural practice.

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

I think what we're saying with this bill is that these practices, which involve violence and which constitute crimes, cannot be defended under any other heading. You can't defend them because it's a family practice. You can't defend them because “that's just the way things were done traditionally in my community”, whether that community is Bountiful, British Columbia, or some community elsewhere in Canada or some community abroad. You can't defend those practices in the name of culture, saying, “I don't have to observe the Criminal Code in this case, because my culture exempts me from that”. There would be no defence in terms of religious freedoms either. One's religion, one's culture does not give one the right to commit crimes in Canada, to violate the Criminal Code.

All the outstanding leaders of our cultural and religious communities understand that the rule of law is one of the great anchors of the quality of life in this country. We are strengthening it when we attack barbaric practices, violent practices that masquerade as culturally acceptable or even religiously acceptable practices.

You will remember some of the practices that were tolerated in the name of religion in previous centuries, even in the last century, in many parts of the world. They also were barbaric. Every religion has some of those practices. We see the Islamic State doing horrific things and justifying them in the name of Islam. We know that's not Islam. We know they are not justified by reference to religion. This is terrorism, this is criminality, this is horrific, and it shouldn't be tolerated anywhere.

It certainly won't be tolerated in Canada, even in the forms it previously was, if we enact these measures.

[Chungsen Leung, Conservative, Willowdale, ON]

This brings me to my point that very often in my community of Willowdale, where there is significant diversity in people of various national origins, I ask the question, “Why do you come here?” We come here because of our shared values in freedom, equality, democracy, and respect for the rule of law. I think this addresses that point precisely.

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Absolutely. But there is an almost universal issue here that really needs to be attacked. Quite apart from the issue of culture and religion, there can be a tendency, when violence is taking place in a family—inside a circle of people who are related in one way or another—to say, “We will just resolve this ourselves, this does not constitute a crime, it was one of us against the other; we can patch it up, we can overcome this.”

Unfortunately, violence against women and girls, quite apart from immigrant communities, quite apart from the phenomena of polygamy and forced marriage, is still far too common in this country. There are still far too many cases of sexual assault, forced marriage, and early marriage brought forward into the criminal justice system.

We need to make sure that women and girls feel empowered to bring these issues forward; that they are not revictimized; that they are protected; that men, boys, women, and girls speak up and speak out about these issues; that they get the support they need in the community; and that we are, down the road, increasingly known as the country in the world in which violence against women and girls, including these barbaric practices that we're discussing today, do not take place or take place at the very lowest level in the world.

That's our goal. It involves all of us, because every community has cases in which violence of this type, as you would know, Mr. Eglinski, has gone unpunished and un-investigated. We need everyone to make this their business.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Madam Blanchette-Lamothe.

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have two more questions for you, Mr. Minister.

First, I would like to quote what you said in the House of Commons in the first hours of debate on Bill S-7. You said, and I quote:

… we also based this bill on a committee report written in 2013 and 2014. That report was on protecting women in our immigration programs ….

I was here at the beginning of this study. I helped draft that report. As you have probably noticed in the supplementary report, the vast majority of witnesses—almost all of the witnesses, in fact—said that they did not support the conditional permanent resident status, saying that it was an important factor in the vulnerability of women. They said that abolishing a status like that, or at least changing it, would help women in violent situations, such as situations of forced marriage.

If you really drafted this bill by considering the testimonies made during the study and the report of this committee, do you intend to make changes to the conditional permanent resident status or to abolish it in the near future?

The purpose of the question isn't to get your opinion on conditional permanent residence. Do you plan to abolish it or change it soon?

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

We have already made changes to this aspect of our immigration system.

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

When did you do that?

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

We've ensured that women sponsored by men and who are victims of spousal abuse or another form of violence have the right to have their permanent residence status protected, even if the sponsor is removed.

As I said earlier in the meeting, we are encouraged by the fact that in dozens of cases—if not hundreds because I know there are several dozen cases—women have benefited from this measure.

If we need…

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Do you intend to change it again? Is it the only change that you've made?

The testimonies were also made on the adoption of those changes. People commented on those amendments, and they want more changes.

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

We've strengthened it since then.

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

When did you do that?

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

The number of women who have used this measure is on the rise. We are doing a lot to protect women sponsored in our immigration system.

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Minister, but my question is not about the other things you're doing.

If I've understood correctly, you aren't making any other changes, despite the testimonies that have been given.

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Yes, we will, if it will be beneficial.

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

So it's not on your radar right now.

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

The protection of women is always on our radar.

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

That's not very convincing. Unfortunately, I don't have the impression that you have heard those witnesses. That's fine; everyone has their priorities.

I have another question for you. I would like to discuss…

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Your priority is to not support the bill.

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Excuse me, Mr. Minister.

Let's talk about reporting. You spoke about numbers a little earlier. It is clear to everyone that reporting is a problem. There aren't enough people aware of forced marriages or enough victims whose reported cases have the chance to move through all the stages of the existing processes.

Denmark has put in place measures like the ones in Bill S-7 on forced marriages. Since these measures were put in place six years ago, the police have not been able to charge a single person, and the courts have not found anyone guilty. A lot of witnesses said that the measures in Bill S-7 could aggravate the situation and reduce the number of reported cases.

What do you tell them? What amendments to Bill S-7 could you suggest to respond to these fears and ensure that more cases, not fewer, are reported?

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

I think the number of cases reported will increase, as will the reporting rate. In fact, there are ways to participate in forced marriages that have not been criminalized until now, but will be going forward.

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

You think it will increase, but what do the people on the ground think? We heard from someone from the United Kingdom who has seen such changes and who spoke about some victims. He told us that the victims are often girls and young women who want to be protected by the police, but who do not want to pursue their parents or family because they don't want them to go to prison. They clearly state that if after speaking with the police, the police lay charges, they would withdraw their case and refuse to cooperate.

On one hand, we have what you think, but on the other, we have what the stakeholders on the ground are hearing. These stakeholders speak to many more victims than you and I combined. I think that refusing to listen to those concerns shows bad faith. If you had listened to them…

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I'm afraid our time has expired. I'm sorry, unless you can very quickly finish, we've run out of time.

Mr. Minister, I want to thank you for taking the time and starting us off on studying this bill. We appreciate your comments. Thank you for coming.

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Thank you, Chair.