Evidence of meeting #118 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was federal.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Alexandra Mendès  Brossard—Saint-Lambert, Lib.
Pierre Poilievre  Carleton, CPC
Lisa MacLeod  Minister of Children, Community and Social Services and Minister Responsible for Women’s Issues, Government of Ontario
Randy Hope  Mayor, Municipality of Chatham-Kent
Jean-Pierre Fortin  National President, Customs and Immigration Union
Randy Boldt  As an Individual

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair (Mr. Robert Oliphant (Don Valley West, Lib.)) Liberal Rob Oliphant

I'm calling this meeting to order. This is the 118th meeting of the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration for the consideration of our study on the impact of irregular crossing of Canada's southern border.

We thank you, Mr. Vaughan and Mr. MacArthur, for joining us today. This is our second meeting on this topic. We have about an hour. We may not need the full hour in this particular session. If our witnesses for the second hour arrive early, we may terminate this a little ahead of the hour to leave a bit more time for the larger panel.

We invite you now, Mr. Vaughan, for about 10 minutes, to present your thoughts.

12:30 p.m.

Spadina—Fort York Ontario

Liberal

Adam Vaughan LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Families

Thanks very much, and thanks for the opportunity to talk about situations confronting a lot of municipalities and provinces across the country as we deal with a surge of shelter users—not just in Toronto, the riding I happen to represent. I'm here, of course, in my capacity as the parliamentary secretary for housing and urban affairs. The situation, as it relates to the province and to the City of Toronto, does not differ radically from the situations in Quebec and large cities like Montreal.

First and foremost, we want to thank those cities for the hard work they've been doing in the last few months as we have experienced a surge of shelter users and people seeking supports, some of which has been driven, of course, by the situation at the borders. It is also part of a larger picture of challenges around housing facing us as a country. We want to thank those partners because we know that cities are on the front line, doing the heavy lifting. The provinces, quite often, are the organizations that provide immediate response as the federal programs kick in.

The situation confronting Toronto is not a crisis in the refugee system. The situation facing Toronto is a housing crisis, and there has been a housing crisis in Toronto since the mid-1990s. If you take a look at the recent statistics, you'll see that there has been a surge in a particular population, but the city's shelter system has been running at over 90% capacity for the last decade. In fact, the crisis was identified in a groundbreaking report in 1999 by Anne Golden, which shows that there is a significant and dangerous trend in housing dynamics across this country and that cities can no longer rely on shelter systems to provide housing.

Our government did not wait for a situation at the border to act. It did not wait for a call from the communities to respond. In our first budget, we doubled the money for homelessness, in particular to get people out of shelters and into supportive housing, and to provide more support for prevention. We tripled the dollars going to provinces by investing in affordable housing funds. Those investments are paying off, with additional resources on the streets. That's why the shelters in these cities haven't reached capacity.

The challenge is that we need a national housing strategy to address this in a fundamental, systematic way so that we have surge capacity in our emergency housing sector. The challenge is to depopulate our shelters, not simply to build more and more shelters. The $40-billion investment in the national housing strategy, which is already being spent in communities from coast to coast to coast—I've been from B.C. to Saint John to the north this year, cutting ribbons on projects—is our response to this present challenge. We have to take a look at exactly what kind of housing we need and work with our provincial and territorial partners, as well as with indigenous governments and municipalities, to make sure that those dollars roll out as quickly as possible.

In terms of the situation that has garnered the most attention, which is the situation of the Toronto shelter system, a long-standing challenge in Toronto has been that half the people in the shelter system are children. This is as true for long-term Canadian populations and multi-generational Canadian families as it is for immigrant and refugee families. Half the people in the city's shelter system, since 1999, have been children.

We've done site visits of the motels in the shelter system, which are currently housing some of the new refugees, asylum claimants, migrants, and immigrants. When you go up to those centres, what you see are buildings full of children. This image, this stereotype of a single person crossing the border, a meme that we saw recently on social media, is just false. It's just not the experience of Toronto, and it's not the experience of the numbers we're seeing.

What we need to do is figure out a strategy that houses families effectively. We are working very hard with the City of Toronto and other municipalities across Ontario, as well as with the Province of Quebec, to set up a system that triages at point of entry, whether it's a regular point of entry or an irregular border crossing, to move families in particular into housing and not shelters, and to support them with the dollars that are part of the federal government's investment in affordable housing and homelessness. This is the strategy and the plan that have been in place since day one when this government took office.

The issue here, as I said, and I will state it again, is that we have a housing crisis in major cities in this country. In large part that's because people flock to major cities when they are in need of housing, because they perceive there to be both employment and housing resources in those communities. Unfortunately Toronto, having sustained a 90%-plus surge in its shelter system, is at a point now where it needs a network of support around it to redistribute some of those families and put them in places where they're going to thrive and contribute to their own lives and the communities they're in.

The model we want to use in Ontario, or we thought we were on the way to using, was the model we put in place in Quebec. A triage system at a point of entry identifies the composition of the family, the composition of the group seeking asylum. It maps the provincial housing system across the entire province. It maps where the financial resources and immigrant support services are, as well as language supports for different groups, because they present at the border differently. It redistributes the pressure so that no one city carries the whole load. In fact, the entire provincial system is kicked into place, and the federal supports that are there are added to the mix to make sure that provinces and municipalities get the supports they need, but also that the people seeking asylum get the supports they're entitled to and are required to be provided with so that the system effectively works.

In the absence of the provincial system being available to us—and the provincial government has suggested that this is uniquely a federal responsibility—which the federal government actually funds on a day-to-day, month-to-month, and year-to-year basis through the social transfer, we've had to reach out to municipalities and municipal partners across the province and basically remap the system that is already in place. We're now working with other municipalities across Ontario to redistribute the pressure and to move people into good, strong housing communities with the right supports. That situation is being mitigated and being worked on.

At the end of the day, quite frankly, if this country is not prepared to move children out of shelters, regardless of their immigration status or citizenship status, if this country is not prepared to put an end to the practice of putting children in emergency shelters, this problem is going to persist. The fear we have, as it relates to emergency housing, is that as we watch the forest fires in northern Ontario, as we see what happened in Fort McMurray, with 80,000 people being displaced very quickly, and as we watch the floods in New Brunswick or the floods in Manitoba that have yet to be addressed in terms of new permanent housing, what we know and what we are seeing is that significant, volatile, sudden, and large population displacements are the new normal. Whether they come from across the border or from inside your province or from across the border of provincial jurisdictions, the reality is that we can no longer sustain an emergency housing system at 90% capacity. It is not sustainable. If we're going to take care of Canadians, we need to create a different kind of housing system. If we're going to make sure we have capacity going forward into the next century, we're going to have to build a housing system that doesn't utilize emergency housing at a 90% capacity rate. It's just that simple.

I'm very proud to be part of a government that recognizes this. It did it from day one of taking office, almost three years ago. As I said, it doubled the amount of money going into homelessness supports across this country and tripled the provincial transfers. It has sustained the social transfers to provinces, and it is currently signing bilaterals, province to province to province right across the country—including, I might add, already one with Ontario. The resources are there. The system is being rebuilt. The focus on getting children, regardless of their status, out of these shelters is under way.

The plan, from our perspective, would be enhanced with provincial participation, but it is not the first time that a provincial government has shirked its responsibilities. In fact, if you go to the Anne Golden report from 1999 and take a look at the recommendations contained in that report, which was the first significant response to homelessness in Toronto, you'll see that it talks about provincial–federal gridlock. At that time, the provinces demanded total control of the housing sector and asked the federal government to get out. At that time, the provincial government in Ontario said that it, and not the federal government, was responsible for housing. What has changed is that now we have a provincial government that says it needs federal help. The good news is that the federal government is there to help.

This jurisdictional gridlock is what has sustained the housing crisis in Ontario and Toronto. It has hurt other provinces just as much. It's time for every level of government, all orders of government, to pull together and solve this problem. If it's migrants today, it will be people from a forest fire tomorrow, or people from a flood the day after that. We need to build a stronger housing system in this country, and that means we have to step up as a federal government.

One reason I'm here today is that when I was a reporter covering this issue back in the late 1990s and early 2000s, I happened to come to Ottawa and question one Stephen Harper about this. Stephen Harper's response to me was to go read the Constitution. His instruction was to read the Constitution. His explicit instructions were that housing was not a federal responsibility and his government wouldn't participate. What made the housing crisis worse since the Anne Golden report was the previous 10 years of government, which effectively cut supports for homelessness, cut supports for construction and repairs, and eliminated the federal presence and subsidies right across this country.

If we had not come through the last decade with weakened housing resources, the City of Toronto, the City of Montreal, Vancouver, and other municipalities right across this country would not be in a position to be frustrated in their response. We would have a robust system. We would have emergency housing being constructed and maintained. Instead, we have the exact opposite.

I'll add one last note. The first act, the very first act, of the provincial government in Ontario was to eliminate $800 million in committed funds for repairs to Toronto community housing. Toronto community housing will now lose one unit of housing per day more than they're building. That will only make the situation worse. We need provincial partnership on this, and we are looking forward to Ontario stepping up regardless of the citizenship status of children.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

Thank you, Mr. Vaughan.

We will begin with Madame Mendès.

You have seven minutes.

12:40 p.m.

Alexandra Mendès Brossard—Saint-Lambert, Lib.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here today.

Mr. Vaughan, it would be helpful to underscore what you said about the Quebec government's co-operation on this issue, which started to emerge more clearly in 2016. As you said, it didn't happen overnight. What is new and more recent, however, is the significant number of people crossing the border at Roxham Road. I was quite glad to hear you point out the co-operation you received from the Quebec government. Given the success achieved under the agreement between the federal and Quebec governments, the effort bears repeating elsewhere.

You set up triage centres and began working closely with the Canada Border Services Agency and RCMP. An entire network of non-governmental organizations is also involved, working to support the efforts of both the federal and provincial governments. A regionalized approach, if you will, was taken to deal with the challenge posed by the refugee claimants. Could you tell us once again what was done in Quebec's case? How do we replicate what worked in Quebec, especially in Ontario?

It is also a matter of housing. Right now, Montreal is at 50% capacity, which means that the approach and the agreement with the Quebec government are working.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON

Thank you for the question.

The system in Quebec is a good one, and it's starting to prove that it has the capacity to manage the situation that is present, in particular because of the way in which the border crossing manifests itself between the United States and Quebec.

First of all, Quebec runs its shelter system at 75% capacity, not at 90% capacity, so when you get these irregular surges in any population of homeless individuals, there's capacity to manage and also to shift resources and to model them around the population of homeless people, as opposed to running it at full capacity and not having that flexibility. That's in large part because the Province of Quebec has invested so strategically and so heavily in prevention strategies, but also in permanent housing and supportive housing, which is one of the best ways to deal with depopulating shelters.

The system that's in play in Quebec, which we think would be easily replicated in Ontario because there is the same basic funding relationship between the province, the federal government, and the municipalities, is a federal triage system that has access to provincial mapping of emergency, but also vacant housing across the entire province. It then models people into where the vacancies exist. It redistributes the pressure from major centres into other centres. It then steps up with additional resources around language, immigrant resettlement services, and everything right down to how their hearings are managed and mapped across the entire system. This triage system takes advantage of the existing provincial social service network and simply has it mapped in real time so that when people arrive they can be triaged into the process.

There are two other things that are critical about this. One is that the numbers haven't quite reached the 2008 numbers. I don't know what Stephen Harper tweeted in 2008 to get to the numbers they got to in terms of border crossings, but something happened back in 2008. That surge capacity was also managed with the existing provincial systems. The difference is that right now we have one province that doesn't want to participate. It doesn't want to use its system to help create a triage system in a significant area of pressure.

What is happening is that the system that was built in Quebec has the capacity to manage this. It does require additional federal resources; that's why the $50 million as an initial payment came forward to help with those challenges. It allows you to map the system, migrate the people into the system in an orderly, structured way, with resources attached to the different files, and then process them in an orderly way and make sure that Canadians are kept safe but also that the migrants, immigrants, and refugees are kept safe.

We know we can replicate the system in Quebec because we were on the verge of doing it with the Province of Ontario before the election. We think that, with co-operation, we could get there. If we can't, we will continue to provide the services we need to make sure that children in particular are kept in a safe environment with services that they require.

We won't be doing things like pulling refugee health care away from people and loading onto provinces extraordinary costs but also extraordinary risks to the health care system. Those sorts of approaches to immigration, regular or irregular, legal or illegal, are unacceptable. This government, as a result, has restored that funding to provinces and will continue to engage with provinces in a positive way to be proactive about this and to create a systemic response to what is clearly an irregular surge. Nonetheless, we need to build systems to manage it.

12:45 p.m.

Brossard—Saint-Lambert, Lib.

Alexandra Mendès

Thank you.

I would say that, in Quebec, we also had the benefit of lessons learned over the past 30 years. As I mentioned earlier, the fact that I worked extensively in the immigration sector for 15 or so years no doubt gives away my age.

Having gone through a number of immigration waves, Quebec had to draw some important lessons. One wave, in particular, left quite an impact on me. It was back when I began working at the Maison internationale de la Rive-Sud, a settlement and support service for immigrants and refugees. At the time, Montreal was coping with a surge in refugees, or claimants, from Romania; they would stow away on shipping containers. The stories we heard were awful. Many of them died in transit from Europe. Not to mention, those who did survive the journey arrived in poor condition, placing an immediate and considerable strain on the health care system. They needed not just physical care, but also psychosocial services. As you can imagine, they were scarred by the journey.

Back then, the late 1980s and early 1990s, Quebec was on the receiving end of a rather massive influx of people crossing into the country irregularly, so the province was forced to adapt. I'm very proud to see that the province not only kept up its capacity to receive newcomers, but also increased that capacity by working with the federal government. That was thanks, however, to the Quebec government sitting down with the federal government. As I see it, the key lies in coming to the table and working together to find the best possible solutions.

12:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

Thank you, Mrs. Mendès. Your time is up.

Mr. Poilievre, you may go ahead.

July 24th, 2018 / 12:45 p.m.

Pierre Poilievre Carleton, CPC

How many years did you spend on Toronto City Council?

12:45 p.m.

Liberal

Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON

I spent just short of eight years on Toronto City Council.

12:45 p.m.

Carleton, CPC

Pierre Poilievre

I'm just looking at a study done by the C.D. Howe Institute, an organization formerly headed by your Liberal finance minister, Bill Morneau. It shows that the increased cost of housing in Toronto due to municipal regulation and red tape is $168,000. In other words, red tape that you helped impose in the city of Toronto increases the cost of each single house by $168,000.

When I found out, Mr. Vaughan, that you were here to testify about housing, I assumed you were coming to apologize to all the people who lost out on the opportunity to live near where the jobs and the opportunities are because of all the red tape you imposed in increasing the cost of housing.

Now, on the issue at hand—

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON

I'm glad you agree that's not the issue at hand.

12:50 p.m.

Carleton, CPC

Pierre Poilievre

—you've said that you have this system of triaging the illegal border crossers after they enter into Canada. How much money has been spent by your government on busing illegal border crossers from one place to another?

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON

I will defer to the department that spends those dollars to give you that answer.

12:50 p.m.

Carleton, CPC

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON

But in terms of the issue you're raising—

12:50 p.m.

Carleton, CPC

Pierre Poilievre

Sorry, the question is, how much has been spent on busing?

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON

The issue of transportation of people from point of entry to safe housing is not part of the ministry that I work for, so I won't have those dollars.

12:50 p.m.

Carleton, CPC

Pierre Poilievre

You're responsible for the housing portfolio, are you not?

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON

That's right.

12:50 p.m.

Carleton, CPC

Pierre Poilievre

Okay. So you're saying that busing them to the housing is not your responsibility. You don't have any knowledge of how much that costs.

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON

It's not a budget line that appears in the briefing notes that I've been prepared—

12:50 p.m.

Carleton, CPC

Pierre Poilievre

Okay. So you don't know because it's not in your briefing notes.

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON

Well, it's—

12:50 p.m.

Carleton, CPC

Pierre Poilievre

Next question. Earlier today we learned that there are about 800 illegal border crossers who are staying in dormitories on campuses. Students will soon return to school, and those illegal border crossers will be evicted from those dormitories. We learned this morning that they will be moved to hotels. That is the government's plan to house these illegal border crossers.

How much will it cost to house the illegal border crossers in hotels in the coming year?

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

Adam Vaughan Liberal Spadina—Fort York, ON

That's a decision that's made by shelter services in a place like Toronto, and in particular with those individuals. But hotels are being used—