Citizenship and Immigration Committee on July 24th, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

I don't believe it was a point of order. I believe it was continued debate.

Ms. Rempel.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Minister Blair—

[Bill Blair]

If I may offer a response to—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

No, I am asking a question. I will ask you a question. Do you plan to comply with the Parliamentary Budget Officer's request—

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chair, you've already indicated that questions need to be directed through you, and I believe the last intervention indicated that that question was directly asked of Minister Blair.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Let me rephrase that.

Mr. Chair, this is my time and I will ask a question of the minister.

Through you, Mr. Chair, will the minister comply with the Parliamentary Budget Officer's request to provide by Thursday projections of the number of people they anticipate coming through the border in the next 18 months? The request is for five years of information, and if it is due on Thursday, why don't they have that information here after we have already approved a $22,000 budget for this study, which the government members are unwilling to provide a report for?

[Bill Blair]

Mr. Chair, I can advise you that this financial data has been compiled and will be provided to the Parliamentary Budget Officer in the coming days, as required.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Why hasn't this been provided to our committee for review? Why hasn't this been provided to the Ontario provincial government? Why is there secrecy and no plan?

[Bill Blair]

Again, the member asked if the information is being provided to the PBO, and the answer is yes.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

If it's been compiled, will the minister table it to committee by the end of the day?

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you, Ms. Rempel.

Thank you, Minister.

Ms. Kwan.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to all of the witnesses, including the two ministers.

I want to get back to this one point with Minister Hussen on the word “illegal” versus “irregular”. I think this is a very central point. We just heard from a number of expert witnesses about the importance of using the right terminology, and about how when people call asylum seekers “illegals” they're dehumanizing them and their dignity, and how doing so has other repercussions as well.

At committee, Minister, on March 19 you agreed that you use those words, “illegal” and “irregular” interchangeably. I believe that is wrong.

Today I just heard you also, at one point in your statement, refer to migrants as “illegal migrants” and I just can't tell you how disturbed I am about that, Minister.

We also had Minister MacLeod, who appeared before us, and she actually said that she is using the word “illegal” because she took a page from you and that's why she is using that.

Once and for all, can we move forward with the right terminology? You are the immigration minister. IRPA, the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, states clearly under section 133 that asylum seekers who cross over, directly or indirectly, are actually not committing an offence. So will you please use the right terminology and say clearly on the public record that it is wrong for immigration purposes to say that asylum seekers who cross over irregularly are “illegals”?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

I never said that asylum seekers are illegal. That's language that's being used by the Government of Ontario, and I haven't used that language.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Well actually, you did. If you go back to read the committee evidence from March 19, you were asked that specific question.

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

I was referring to the act of crossing the border. I wasn't referring to the asylum seekers themselves. There is a distinction there.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Well, okay.

You're saying that for CBSA, the act of crossing the border is illegal, but then once they cross over and they make it clear to say that they are seeking asylum, they are not committing a criminal offence.

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Correct.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Will you say that?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Well, I've said it in my statement.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Okay.

So let me ask you this. In your statement you also said, the charges are “stayed pending...asylum claims”. What charges?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

The charge of crossing the border irregularly.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Asylum seekers, when they cross over seeking asylum at irregular border crossings, are not charged. Their asylum claim is pending the IRB determination. Do you not know that, Minister?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

I do know that.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Then why would you say that charges are pending the asylum claim?

When you make these comments, Minister, you are conflating the issue. You are stripping asylum seekers of their dignity. You are dehumanizing them.

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

I haven't done that.