Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Oct. 23rd, 2018

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Quickly with the time I have remaining, the UNHCR says they have a process for complaints related to discrimination.

Do you have faith in that process, given your lived experience?

[Bibe Kalalu]

I want to mention three things about the asylum claim process. Even if your refugee claim is denied upon review of your file because you are an LGBT person, the HCR can still plead your case and help you find a third country if you were deemed an asylum seeker, even if you were not granted refugee status.

On the other hand, the HCR cannot appeal to the police or the prime minister's office to grant you asylum seeker or refugee status. We have already negotiated with the HCR about that. We have a number of witnesses, like those nine LGBT refugees who left Kenya, Burundi and Rwanda, and who have had a lot of problems recently. Six or seven months ago, some of them were arrested, others were beaten up and harassed and their rights were violated. It was a disaster. We pleaded their case to the HCR, which tried to negotiate with the prime minister, but that has been to no avail as of yet.

[Witness 1]

I want to add that there have been bilateral meetings between the prime minister's office and the HCR. The organization Interaid also took part in those meetings recently as an implementation partner, but there have been no tangible results. The HCR bravely shows its willingness to help LGBT persons. Owing to current pressure by the government, however, the speaker of Parliament, Ms. Kadaga still refuses any debate about LGBT persons. This hurts us; our hearts are bleeding.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you.

Madam Kwan.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would also like to recognize that my colleague Randall Garrison, who has been the NDP critic on this file for many years, a staunch advocate on the issue, is here to observe this meeting as well.

I'd like to thank our witnesses today for your courage and for your ongoing advocacy in what you do in Uganda.

I come today with some understanding of the challenges you face from this perspective. On October 17, at the 139th IPU Assembly meeting, in fact, a motion was put forward to try to recognize the rights of the LGBTQI community members. It was met with hostility. I think that's a very gentle word to describe the response from the Ugandan representative. I will just put on the record a quote. He said, “We shall continue to fight the LGBT issues on the international level until people here appreciate that same-sex is inhuman and anti-culture”. That's a direct quote from representative Francis, at the meeting.

To get a sense of the hostility, the challenges and the risks you face as a community there, I think we get a glimpse of that.

On that note, in terms of what Canada can do to advocate at the international level, I think it is fair enough to say that everybody at this committee will advocate for that and want our country and our government to do that.

In terms of specific actions, do you have any specific piece? You suggested talking to the United States. The United States is a bit of a challenge, and I don't want to go into details about that. Are there specific aspects, for example, a meeting we can go to, a motion perhaps that could be passed in the House of Commons, or anything to that effect, that would assist the situation and lend support and voice to you?

[Witness 1]

Thank you very much, Ms. Kwan.

It is very difficult for us because we are doubly victimized. Uganda is a very conservative country that focuses a great deal on culture. I do not know how to explain it. Perhaps Ms. Kadaga is hurting us to appeal to voters, or so she can do whatever she can or wants to do. That is doubly harmful to us because we had to leave our homeland to come here. The United Nations consistently calls for us to be treated like human beings, but she refuses, which has an impact on Parliament, on the population, and on police services.

This affects us a great deal. Someone asked if this also has an impact on the HCR. It does, and it affects the work of its officials. We would appreciate it if you could please negotiate with whomever to put an end to this.

[Bibe Kalalu]

I will also comment on that.

You may recall that we used to work with the Refugee Project. That organization defended LGBT persons in Uganda, but that protection led to the closing of refugee offices for a whole year. That was a shock, and the Refugee Project faced a lot of problems. The Refugee Project tried to do more for LGBT persons living in Uganda. We did a lot of serious work with that organization in the past, but it is difficult now.

The Refugee Project focuses especially on health and protection. In the past, if a person was arrested, the organization could send a lawyer to help them. At this time, the Refugee Project cannot provide legal assistance to a person who is arbitrarily arrested. We have sexually transmitted diseases, such as HIV, and other health problems. So if an LGBT person goes to any hospital and admits to being LGBT, they are turned away. We are turned away everywhere. We used to do a lot of work with the Refugee Project, on 80% of cases. Now we are only working with them on 3% of our current cases.

We are starting to suffer in terms of safety and health care.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I'm going to ask one more question. I think I'm going to run out of time very quickly.

When we travelled as a committee to Uganda, one of the issues, at least for me, was that, in speaking with one representative from the UNHCR, when I asked them how safe Uganda was for the members of LGBTQI community, the response was, “If people didn't flaunt their gayness, they would be safe.”

From that perspective, I don't know how.... Anyway, I won't go into that comment.

I guess on this question around resettlement, how can you, given those circumstances, go to the UNHCR and make your application? You highlighted some of those challenges.

Would you recommend for Canada to come forward with a special initiative to prioritize LGBTQI members from what we call individuals who have been persecuted in their own country who are internally displaced, such as the LGBTQI community, as a separate strain for resettlement to Canada so that we can have that dealt with by the UNHCR in a different way, hopefully, to provide some support to the members there?

[Witness 1]

Thank you very much.

That is right. That is what we want above all else. On July 12, we had a meeting with officials from the Protection Desk Uganda. For a long time, I have been asking for LGBT persons to be treated as persons with specific needs. Why? Because LGBT people are rejected all over the world and have to lock themselves in their homes to avoid being attacked and dealing with problems outside.

How can a person hide their homosexuality? LGBT persons have to live their lives. They have to talk to their neighbours, go to the market or the hospital. It is completely impossible. I think you can negotiate with the officials to give priority to LGBT persons because they are really not treated like other people. I mentioned the Refugee Act, adopted in 2006. Our needs related to employment, freedom and fundamental rights have to be considered. We have never experienced that as LGBT refugees. Members of the LGBT community want to be treated like everyone else.

[Bibe Kalalu]

I would like to add something and go back to the question you asked the HCR official. If a person conceals their gender identity, they can indeed receive assistance. If a person is tall, how can they be short? If a person is fat, how can they be thin? How can a person hide their pregnancy and become thin? If they are born that way, how can they change or hide it? It is difficult. People cannot hide their gender identity. The body has to be what it is, just as you do. Being an LGBT person is not a crime. It does not make you a thief. An LGBT person is not a speck of dust without value. This is why we are seeking protection and financial assistance from you.

It is also a health issue. In Uganda, we really have a lot of health problems. For LGBT persons who become ill, the situation becomes desperate. Many of us die, lose our lives for nothing, here in Uganda. Access to health care and the labour market are among the problems we face because of our gender identity. If we go work somewhere and people find out we are LGBT, we are fired automatically without being paid. It becomes difficult. In fact, it becomes a crime.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Whalen.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you very much for coming.

Just to get a little more information from the Angels Refugee Support Group Association, how many people does your group support?

[Bibe Kalalu]

Thank you very much for the question.

The members of the Angels Refugee Support Group Association work in several parts of Uganda: in Kampala, at the Kyaka II and Nakivale refugee camps, and in the Hoima district. There are currently 55 of us in Kampala, 35 at the Nakivale camp, 40 at the Kyaka II camp and 25 in Hoima. I am referring to persons who identify as members of the LGBT community right now. There are other persons who continue to identify as such. There are more than 150 LGBT persons living in Uganda.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Do you have an estimate of how many LGBTI refugees there are in the camps?

[Bibe Kalalu]

There are three refugee camps, some in the capital of Kampala. Several of our members are in the camps in Kampala, Kyaka II, Nakivale and Hoima. Here in Kampala, there are 55 of us, there are 45 in Nakivale, 35 in Hoima, and 32 in Kyangwali.

It is 11:30 p.m. We got three very urgent cases. After this meeting, I am going to the Nakivale camps because there have been some arrests. I will be going today and very early tomorrow morning.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

In terms of ethnic Ugandans who are also LGBTI, does your group provide any support to them if they find themselves displaced as well?

[Bibe Kalalu]

Can you repeat the question, please?

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Does your organization provide any support to ethnic Ugandans who are also being persecuted because of their sexual orientation or their gender?

[Bibe Kalalu]

Yes, some Ugandans use our organization because there are no Ugandan organizations to help them.

We work with Ugandan organizations. In Uganda, there are a lot of organizations that help LGBT persons and that also have a lot of members. People reach out to our organization and refugee organizations for counselling, guidance and advice.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Canada has a rainbow refugee assistance pilot program that it offers in connection with a group in Vancouver. Since 2011, the federal government has assisted that group in privately sponsoring refugees from the LGBTI community. Has your organization ever participated in their programs to privately sponsor refugees from Uganda?

[Bibe Kalalu]

No, no, no. There are a lot of organizations in Uganda that protect LGBT persons, but when LGBT refugees approach them, they are told they do not work with refugees. This creates confusion. It is the same thing when we ask for services or help: the organization officials tell us they do not work with refugees.

[Witness 1]

I would like to add something.

One of our members made statements to the media. She works with Rainbow Railroad, and I would like to thank Rainbow Railroad very much. I helped her during that process, but it took us some time to get involved. From time to time, she has problems because everyone knows her now.

In any case, we need mutual assistance on immigration. You have to look at how you can get involved to solve our members' urgent problems.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

In terms of your involvement with Canada as compared to other countries that your organizations have worked with to place LGBTI refugees for resettlement in those other countries, what other suggestions might you make for Canada to adopt other best practices?

[Bibe Kalalu]

First of all, thank you very much for the question.

I would ask you to focus on emergency measures and the resettlement of LGBT refugees living in Uganda. I would ask you to provide assistance very quickly, along with funding and resettlement services.

In addition, it takes at least 18 to 20 months to get a visa from a country such as Canada. In the meantime, we are waiting and suffering here in Uganda. If you can speed the visa process up, that could make it easier for us to leave the country. There are a lot of challenges for us in this country. Canada needs to help organizations that look after LGBT persons, especially in terms of health and safety.

Those are our recommendations.

[Witness 1]

I would like to add a suggestion.

LGBT refugees who have documents are assisted by the HCR and other humanitarian agencies. But who helps the people who have no documents, those without papers? You can think of them. If it does not work with the HCR and the government, perhaps you can think of other ways of preventing asylum seekers from dying before our very eyes.

You are in a better position to think of something than we are; you can expand the possibilities better than we can. We are constantly under pressure because we are at risk of dying.

Canada is a big country. We thank you, but we want you to keep thinking of us. We commend you for your courage to take action and help us quickly, very quickly, compared to other countries. We have been contacted many embassies and delegations, and your concern for our difficulties has been touching.