Evidence of meeting #131 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was countries.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Hina Jilani  Co-Chair, World Refugee Council
Allan Rock  Special Adviser, World Refugee Council
Patti Tamara Lenard  Associate Professor, Graduate School of Public and International Affairs, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Salma Zahid  Scarborough Centre, Lib.
James Milner  Associate Professor, Department of Political Science, Carleton University, As an Individual
Ramez Ayoub  Thérèse-De Blainville, Lib.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

I would just note that the spirit of the motion, when we agreed to it and agreed to change the scope of the topic, was not to allow the chair to arbitrarily arrange meetings without having some input into it. Otherwise I would have moved the motion to have it as a separate study.

This is why I find it odd that there wasn't a bit more thought given to planning.

Against my better judgment, I would say, depending on how you answer this, that if you intend, as the chair, to perhaps put together a panel that is a bit more robust than just one person for the remainder of the three-and-a-half meetings, which you have now deemed, I think that's probably more in the spirit of what that motion was. Frankly, this seems like a squandering of the time.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

I believe about 12 witnesses have been submitted about the compacts, plus departmental officials.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Then why do we have a panel with one person on it?

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

He was able to be here today.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Okay. I would ask that if we are not able to schedule the other witnesses or the department officials.... What I don't want to see is another panel like this, with this person having been on the list for the broader study. If the briefing notes can deem that we are now losing half the meeting or whatnot, that would be good going forward.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

I hear your point.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Do you accept it, Chair?

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

I accept that at times a panel of one is appropriate or a panel of six is appropriate, depending on the topic and what you want to get out of them.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

I would disagree, because it does impact the amount of time that we have to question. If the government chooses to put all of the officials on one panel...I would just say that if we have a panel of six and it's all departmental officials, then opposition parties have less time to question department officials, which is a tactic I see employed often by this government. I would not like to see that happen in this case.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

There's some irony here that I won't draw our attention to.

Mr. Maguire, even though I'm not sure we have a motion on the floor, would you like to contribute?

November 6th, 2018 / 4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Mine was just a comment, Mr. Chair.

When we began this particular session, it was indicated by you that there were no witnesses for this session. I fall into the same line as my colleague Mr. Tilson, which is that if no parties put any witnesses forward, why are we having a meeting?

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

I would say to the committee that it's far more complex than that. Many witnesses have been submitted for the large study, of which the global compacts are a sub-part.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

I realize that.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

There was a request for three witnesses for this panel today. Two were not able to come. We decided to go ahead with the professor's expertise because I thought it was valuable to the committee. I also thought that the committee would have much time to question him, but that is disappearing.

I have Mr. Tabbara, and then Mr. Whalen.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Marwan Tabbara Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON

I have a final comment. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I agree with you. We had other witnesses. Maybe some were not submitted, but we had other witnesses. There was only one available today. I think it's incumbent on us to not waste any more time and have the witness testify so we can ask certain questions.

Going forward, I think we all—all parties—should all be submitting witnesses on deadlines and respecting those deadlines. Also, depending on the types of witnesses we have, I agree that you can have one or you can have four or five, as we've seen in the committee.

I think we should get on to questioning.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Whalen.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL

I withdraw my comment.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

Professor, we had already agreed that you would speak a little longer than the seven minutes because we only had one witness. I'm going to keep to that commitment we made to you for you to give us your wisdom. Then the committee will ask you some questions.

4:50 p.m.

Professor James Milner Associate Professor, Department of Political Science, Carleton University, As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm grateful for this opportunity to appear before you today.

As you have encountered in your study, the global refugee regime was created in the aftermath of the Second World War to serve two functions: first, to ensure protection for refugees, and second, to find a solution to their plight. UNHCR as an organization was established to work with states to realize these aims.

Despite enduring support for the norms of the refugee regime and the growth of UNHCR over the past 60 years, the regime is unable to predictably deliver on its core mandate. Around the world, incoherent and ad hoc responses to refugees result in uncertainty and instability for refugees and states alike. Likewise, as the committee would have seen in its visit to Tanzania and Uganda, 85% of the world's refugees remain in the global south in their regions of origin and spend an average of 20 years in exile.

Why do we have this situation? I propose today to give a diagnosis of why we see these challenges with the functioning of the global refugee regime, to highlight some potential uses that the global compact might play in addressing these shortcomings, and then to make some suggestions in terms of roles that Canada might play in building on the opportunity of the global compact to reinvigorate the global refugee regime. I've been working on these issues for about 20 years.

My work on the politics of the global refugee regime leads me to conclude that the regime's inability to reliably fulfill its mandate is the result of three key factors.

First, states retain ultimate control over the quality and quantity of asylum they grant to refugees on their territory. This is fully consistent with the principle of state sovereignty, but it has resulted in inconsistencies in the application of global refugee policy across states. It has contributed to a rise in restrictive asylum policies around the world since the late 1980s. Co-operation within the global refugee regime depends on political will but also leveraging the interests of states.

Second, outcomes for refugees are shaped by politics in policy fields that fall outside the scope of the refugee regime. Outcomes for refugees are now often shaped by decisions made within regimes relating to travel, labour, development and security, each of which can claim authority over certain aspects of refugee movements. In some cases, regime complexity has opportunities. As you would have seen in Uganda, development governance can leverage the participation of actors that can create opportunities to encourage self-reliance for refugees and encourage their contribution to local and national economies, but in other areas, it may enable actors to shift decision-making on responses to refugees into regimes that better suit their interests, thus eroding the authority and efficacy of the global refugee regime. The regime needs the ability to more consistently and effectively engage with related policy fields and to leverage these fields to articulate win-win outcomes, both for refugees and for states.

The third challenge is probably the most fundamental, in that the regime contains no binding obligation on states to co-operate to ensure the functioning of the regime. While countries of first asylum have an international obligation not to forcibly return refugees to a country where they fear persecution, there is no binding obligation on other states to share the costs associated with the provision of asylum. While there's broad agreement by states on the principle of international co-operation and responsibility-sharing, there is no binding obligation on states to co-operate to find solutions to refugees. In the absence of such a mechanism, responsibility for refugees is the result of accidents of geography, with states in regions of refugee origin hosting the vast majority of the world's refugees.

The resulting inequalities raise not only ethical questions but deeper political questions as to how international co-operation can be mobilized in an environment where front-line states cannot rely on support to respond to the arrival and prolonged presence of refugees. In fact, the perceived lack of international co-operation over the past 30 years has prompted several states in the global south to introduce more restrictive asylum policies. It has exacerbated north-south tensions within the refugee regime, and resulted in low levels of trust and confidence between major refugee-hosting states and donor states.

The global compact on refugees, which is currently before the UN General Assembly and is facing difficult passage in New York, presents us with an opportunity to address some—but not all—of the governance gaps currently facing the regime.

First, if implemented, the compact can provide incentives to refugee-hosting states to adopt approaches to refugees that promote protection and solution. Here, it can help rebuild trust between refugee-hosting states and other members of the international communities.

Second, the global compact on refugees includes mechanisms that connect refugee issues with broader discussions of development, policy and practice. This is a necessary innovation that can lead to substantial change.

Third, the global compact for refugees calls for a ministerial-level global refugee forum to meet every few years to mobilize high-level political engagement in the process of resolving refugee situations. This mechanism allows for the building of political will and the mobilization of collective action to respond to a shared issue of common concern. As with global issues such as trade and the environment, refugee situations are best resolved through sustained collective action. Political will is required to ensure that this piece of the rules-based international order is able to effectively address this shared challenge and overcome collective action failure.

The global compact will not address all gaps in the global refugee regime. It remains a voluntary, non-binding agreement and does not ensure that international co-operation is reliable and effective in all situations. As such, it's not a panacea. However, it does provide a potentially important opportunity to demonstrate the value of collective action, to rebuild trust, and to reinvigorate confidence in the rules-based international order.

Is there an opportunity for Canada to lead in the global compact? I would say that Canada has already been leading in the development of the global compact, and I'm happy to talk about that in the question time. I think Canada has an opportunity to lead in the implementation of the global compact, both to enhance the refugee regime and, critically, to demonstrate its credentials as a defender of the rules-based international order.

As I discussed with Canadian missions in Kenya and Tanzania two weeks ago when I was in East Africa, and as I argued at the global heads of mission meeting in Ottawa last May, Canada can mobilize existing immigration, development and humanitarian resources in a way that helps implement the global compact and responds to shared interests with major refugee-hosting states. This would enhance Canada's relations with such states and leverage protection and solutions for refugees.

Where, specifically, can Canadian leadership help maximize impact? I'd point to two opportunities.

First, within the global compact there's a commitment to host a ministerial-level global refugee forum in late 2019 or early 2020. Canada can offer to co-chair that first ministerial-level meeting. Over the next year, Canada could lead efforts to build a north-south coalition of states committed to demonstrating the benefits of collective action. It could rebuild trust in the global refugee regime, and it could leverage a solution for refugees. This is for the benefit of states and refugees alike.

Second—and I think this is lower-hanging fruit—Canada can conduct a review of the immigration, development, diplomatic and humanitarian assets it currently has committed to major refugee-hosting states and regions. Canada should then propose the convening of a platform, another mechanism in the global compact, in situations where Canada can lead with other states in leveraging change through the complementary use of existing resources in co-operation with other states.

This is how Canada led with unlocking the situation with the Lhotshampa Bhutanese refugees in Nepal. A similar logic can be used to roll out this mechanism. This approach has enabled Canada to lead in resolving specific refugee situations in the past. It has resulted in positive outcomes for refugees and the states that host them. It has also significantly enhanced Canada's standing in the international community. We've done it before, and I believe that support for the implementation of the global compact for refugees provides us with the opportunity to do it again.

Thank you very much. I look forward to your questions.

4:55 p.m.

Ramez Ayoub Thérèse-De Blainville, Lib.

Mr. Milner, thank you for being here. My apologies for the wasted time that we could have used to ask you more questions and to benefit from your expertise. Sometimes, there is politics even in the most thoughtful committees.

You highlighted three specific points.

As I understand it, states see no benefit in cooperating to facilitate the application of the global compact on migration. One of the collateral effects of that is the withdrawal of the United States. Three countries have withdrawn from the compact. The decisions of our next-door neighbour have repercussions around the world but particularly for us, given that Canada has a safe third country agreement with the United States.

How do we manage and keep our global leadership, as you said in your recent comments, without the benefit of economic support based on the number of refugees? We are already receiving a significant number. Other witnesses have said that it is a drop in the ocean. Clearly, it is very little in terms of the demand.

How do we manage to reconcile it all, so that Canada can become a leader, as you suggested in your recent comments?

5 p.m.

Mr. Robert Oliphant (Don Valley West, Lib.)

Prof. James Milner

Thank you very much; that is a wonderful question. If I may, I will answer it in English.

5 p.m.

Thérèse-De Blainville, Lib.

Ramez Ayoub

No problem.

5 p.m.

Mr. Robert Oliphant (Don Valley West, Lib.)

Prof. James Milner

There are two elements of that question that I think are fundamentally important: one is the question of how you encourage co-operation in the absence of an obligation to co-operate; then, second, how do you ensure the functioning of a regime where the hegemon of that regime is clearly withdrawing from that regime?

Let me take those two in turn.

One, on the question of how you ensure co-operation in the absence of binding obligations, the argument would be incentives. You find those situations in which existing assets and the bringing in of new partners can leverage change, and you make those success stories.

What you saw in Uganda, in terms of the investment in allowing refugees to contribute to the local economy and that being seen as an economic contribution to Uganda, got Ethiopia thinking about the potential utility of attracting concessional loans from the World Bank to open up a special economic zone so that 800,000 refugees were no longer in camps but working in special economic zones. That has now had an impact on Kenya, etc.

This global climate is not one in which we're going to have new treaty obligations that bind states to new commitments. When António Guterres was the high commissioner for refugees, now the UN Secretary General, he mused, in his last time with the executive committee of the UNHCR, about how it would be great if there were an additional protocol to the 1951 convention that made international co-operation a binding obligation. That's not something we're going to realize.

However, I think an opportunity that's before us with multilateral development banks, with the World Bank, with national and regional economic actors now seeing the economic opportunities that derive from engaging with refugees as a driver of local and national development, creates opportunities to create new incentives. I think that's the pathway to ensuring co-operation, because it doesn't appeal exclusively to humanitarian principles; it appeals to the interests of states. I think this is how we can generate momentum to be able to see co-operation without a binding obligation to co-operate.

How do you do that in the context of the absence of the United States? Here I'd speak to the global compact on refugees.

The United States has formally withdrawn from the global compact on migration. We've also seen, within the last two weeks, the United States expressing a reluctance to be part of a consensus omnibus resolution to the UN General Assembly that endorses the global compact on refugees. We're not entirely sure how that's going to play itself out. It's happening right now in New York.

It's very clear that the United States has already indicated its intention to reduce its engagement in the global refugee regime, specifically in the context of the numbers of refugees that it resettles. It's going somewhere from the area of 90,000 to 100,000 a year down to 20,000 to 30,000 a year. There's an immediate question of numbers when it comes to refugee resettlement: How do you make up the shortfall?

I think more critical is funding to UNHCR. The United States, as a matter of policy, contributed 38% of funding to UNHCR, and it's mused about cutting that support in half.

More important is the question of political leadership. It can't fall on countries like Canada to make up that gap in immediate monetary or numbers terms. I think what it does is create opportunities for new forms of leadership.

The United States has been the hegemon within the refugee regime. It has determined outcomes. As a matter of principle, the deputy high commissioner has always been an American. It may be that this is an opportunity where that impact, this level of influence, of the United States within the refugee regime, which has been so significant for more than 50 years, changes. It may result in a very different refugee regime, possibly a more nimble regime, but I think there are opportunities in terms of other actors who are willing to play a leadership role.

The critical point I would make is that it doesn't necessarily mean significant new resources; it involves thinking creatively about the application of the assets that we currently have in play.

5:05 p.m.

Thérèse-De Blainville, Lib.

Ramez Ayoub

Thank you.

How much time do I have left?

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

You have one minute.