Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Nov. 22nd, 2018

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Then who would be safe under Trump? UNHCR refugees are safe, but not upstate New York refugees.

[Lloyd Axworthy]

You'd better check with them. I'm not in any way providing the guidance on that policy—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

But you are very respected, sir, and you've made this big pronouncement on Canadian policy, and your organization is not funded to provide refugee services but to provide think-tank support. Now you're saying you're not sure who is safe in the U.S. and who isn't. Isn't that a little weird? Don't you think that's strange?

[Lloyd Axworthy]

What I'm saying is that we're going through a real time of distemper, when not just the United States but other countries are substantially shrinking—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

But don't you think it's irresponsible to say that the United States is no longer a safe third country if you can't—

[Lloyd Axworthy]

I didn't say it was.... I said that I think it doesn't share the same definition—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

But you did. You said we should suspend the agreement. It's—

[Lloyd Axworthy]

—or acceptance of refugees.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

—kind of weird.

[Lloyd Axworthy]

Well, that's part of the problem—that there's now such a wide variance. You can go into European countries where the definition of refugees is much broader than you will find in Canada—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

To be clear—

[Lloyd Axworthy]

—and you'll find that certainly the United States has taken it down to a very narrow window by which they will accept asylum applications.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

So refugees from upstate New York—

[Lloyd Axworthy]

No, they're not from there.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

—but not from the UN.... It's cool to refer UNHCR camp refugees to the United States under Trump, but not upstate New York. For Canada's purposes, upstate New York is a refugee, but a Yazidi genocide survivor....

[Lloyd Axworthy]

Let's go back to the way the system should work.

One of the problems with the third party system is that you can't make application through the official residences or embassies of Canada. You have to cross the border, because under the third party system you're prevented from going to a Canadian consulate to make that—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Do you really think that somebody should be claiming asylum in Canada after reaching the United States?

[Lloyd Axworthy]

Why not?

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

That's really at the core of it. I don't accept the academic argument that you're making it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

I'm afraid I need you to end there.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Go ahead, Ms. Kwan.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd actually like to pick up on that, Mr. Axworthy. I particularly appreciate the work that you do, especially in this capacity, even though you were the former minister for the Liberal Party and I'm NDP. That said, I appreciate the work that you do, because it is not a partisan issue when we're talking about a humanitarian crisis, when we're talking about lives. It's not a show, either. It's not about tricking people into a perspective.

I do want to touch on the safe third country agreement, because it's so easy to simply say, “Oh, gee, the United States is a safe country, because the UN refers people to that country at the moment”, but we are trying to neglect and ignore the fact that the United States currently, as you were mentioning, Mr. Axworthy, rips children away from parents. We are currently ignoring the fact that the United States is declaring transgender people, people from the LGBTQ community, to be stripped of their identity, as though somehow it is a safe thing for people to be there seeking asylum. It's so easy to be clear-cut and black and white on that. In reality, though, when it impacts people's lives, it's maybe not so much black and white.

On that question, I appreciate the comments that you made, Mr. Axworthy, that Canada needs to suspend the safe third country agreement because of those actions of the United States.

With that said, on the global compact issue, you mentioned a variety of things on which Canada can take action. Although you're from a think tank, I am particularly interested in getting your thoughts with your experience as a former cabinet minister on the actions that you think Canada should take that would contribute to dealing with this global crisis that we're all faced with as human beings on this globe.

[Lloyd Axworthy]

Thank you very much. I appreciate your words.

Can I make one comment? I think one of the important outcomes of this discussion is that parliamentarians will take a much more active role. This is something that shouldn't be subject to partisan divisions. This is something that really affects people's lives in the most severe and direct way, so there is a degree to which the committee and others can promote the ability of Canada to offer those kinds of broader-based initiatives where they happen.

Wwe really start with this fundamental question of accountability. International organizations, people who work in the community, have to be held to some form of judgment or assessment of their actions. That's one reason we have been working with a number of governments around the idea of being able to attach frozen assets that have come out because of sanctions of the Magnitsky act and reallocate them back to help people who were the victims who suffered from the actions of these bad guys.

The Swiss have already passed legislation to that effect. There are other countries looking at it. We hope Canada will look at it, because that's not just a way of putting money back in the system: it also means that if you're one of the warlords or despots, you're not going to be so anxious to provide money in your piggy bank somewhere in the world if you know that's it's going to be attached by good forensic work by our courts and our banks.

I think this is a very specific thing, and it has a double whammy: it's more money for the system, and it's also a way of putting a real deterrent to the actions of people right now who are so much the cause of the refugee movements.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Then your recommendation is for Canada to put in a bill, legislation, similar to that of Switzerland with regard to the frozen assets.