Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Nov. 22nd, 2018

[Lloyd Axworthy]

I don't think the council sees itself as a permanent organization. We were brought together for the specific purpose of trying to provide an independent source of ideas and proposals and recommendations around the compact process so that we can get down to serious work.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Okay.

I think you have said that the safe third country agreement with the United States should be abolished. Is that correct?

[Lloyd Axworthy]

The third party agreement? Yes, I think right now that it's getting in the way of our being able to solve some of the problems at the borders.

I'm going down on Monday—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I'm just going to ask another question on that.

Do you think that the UNHCR should continue to refer refugees to the United States?

[Lloyd Axworthy]

Oh, sure. I mean, I think—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Okay, I have a question. How do you square that circle?

If the United States is no longer a safe third country and we should suspend the agreement, then why should the UNHCR refer refugees to it?

[Lloyd Axworthy]

The United States is still accepting applications. It's much reduced. I think they've reduced by almost 80%—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's kind of either a safe third country or it's not.

[Lloyd Axworthy]

No, I—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

If it's not a safe third country in relation to people coming from upstate New York into Canada, then why should the United States be asked to accept refugees from the UNHCR anymore?

[Lloyd Axworthy]

I think you have to go to its origins. It came out as part of the follow-up package to the 9/11 border arrangements. We wanted to provide a kind of co-operative management of the system.

It's changed. I think the present administration has a very different view of what a refugee is, or what the responsibility of the United States is—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

So refugees aren't safe under—

[Lloyd Axworthy]

As a result, it makes it more difficult.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I just want to know, are refugees safe under Donald Trump?

[Lloyd Axworthy]

It depends: safe from what?

They are being incarcerated. Their kids are being taken away. I mean, there are a number of very serious default lines in the U.S. policy at the present that—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Is the World Refugee Council, which doesn't provide services to refugees, also going to ask the UNHCR to stop referring refugees to the United States?

[Lloyd Axworthy]

No, I think what we're suggesting is that we—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I just don't get that, Mr. Axworthy. How can you say that the United States is not a safe third country for people who are in upstate New York already and they should come to Canada, and yet the UNHCR should refer them to the United States? I mean, they're either safe under Trump or they're not.

[Lloyd Axworthy]

The UNHCR is simply implementing the 1951 refugee convention. If there are refugees applying for asylum or sanctuary, it's the responsibility—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

So they are safe under Trump.

[Lloyd Axworthy]

The UNHCR—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

UNHCR refugees are safe under Trump, but people in upstate New York are not safe under Trump.

[Lloyd Axworthy]

I would say, again, it's not one of those black and white, either-or situations. It's increasingly—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I would argue it is. I would say either the U.S. asylum system is working and it's safe for refugees—

[Lloyd Axworthy]

No, it's not. It has been substantially reduced.

One of the things that bothers—