Evidence of meeting #134 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was global.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Matt DeCourcey  Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship
Susan Greene  Senior Director, Resettlement and Protection Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Glen Linder  Director General, International and Intergovernmental Relations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Salma Zahid  Scarborough Centre, Lib.
Stephen Salewicz  Director General, International Humanitarian Assistance, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Deirdre Kent  Director General, International Assistance Policy, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Ramez Ayoub  Thérèse-De Blainville, Lib.

5:15 p.m.

Senior Director, Resettlement and Protection Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Susan Greene

I think I can start with a response, and then I'll invite our colleague Mr. Salewicz to speak in part on how the global compact for refugees recognizes all individuals globally who have been forcibly displaced, which could also include those who have been displaced due to climate concerns.

As we said earlier today, our definitional change is not really affected—we're still working with the definition based on the 1951 convention and it has been reaffirmed as being appropriate. Of course, when we look at the reality of what's happening around the world, there are many complex situations at play, and, unfortunately, people are vulnerable in many ways. Whether they are members of an LGBT community, whether they are displaced due to conflict and fragility in their region, or whether it's for climate reasons really becomes less important than the fact that they are displaced and that they are vulnerable.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

I have to stop you there, Ms. Greene. Thank you.

Mr. Ayoub, you may go ahead for seven minutes.

5:20 p.m.

Ramez Ayoub Thérèse-De Blainville, Lib.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to take some of my valuable time to recognize Ms. Rempel as the person who asked that the committee hear from witnesses on the global compact. Since she's not here, she can't ask questions about the compact. It is somewhat troubling, but not too serious. We, for our part, are here, and we will learn what we can. She can read the blues to see what was talked about. We aren't in the House, so we can have a discussion.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

The rules of the House don't require—

5:20 p.m.

An hon. member

[Inaudible—Editor]

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

On a point of order, I assume the rules of the House of Commons apply to this committee, and it's most improper for a member to say that someone is not present. That rant by my colleague is most inappropriate. I'd ask him to withdraw those comments.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

I agree with Mr. Tilson. We have to be very cautious about commenting on the presence or absence of a member.

I would ask you to continue.

5:20 p.m.

Thérèse-De Blainville, Lib.

Ramez Ayoub

I'll be careful going forward. I appreciate the warning.

I shall carry on then. The UN High Commissioner for Refugees, Volker Türk, whom you are no doubt familiar with, released a document, on behalf of the UN Refugee Agency, detailing why the global compact on migration is so important. He talks about the multilateral approach, which is an important element, as well as international co-operation in the area of migration. I'm going to make the document available to the committee members.

Migration issues impact countries that are poor or have limited resources. According to Pareto's Law, 80% of migration and immigration problems occur in poor countries, with the remaining 20% occurring in countries that could help the poorer ones by providing infrastructure and strategic support to meet the challenges.

My question is for all the witnesses.

What do you think of the target set by what I call the global compact forum? I call it that because the global compact is an international forum where countries come together to manage migrant crises. Countries should not take from the compact whatever suits them best. It's a non-binding compact. Countries gain, not on an individual level, but on a global one.

5:20 p.m.

Director General, International Humanitarian Assistance, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Stephen Salewicz

I think you've put your finger on a very important element of the compact and a very important objective of the compact, which is enhancing international collaboration around the issue of refugees, if I speak to the refugee compact. Indeed, at the heart of the compact is an understanding that the front-line nations, the nations that are on the front lines of the refugee crises around the world, are disproportionately affected and responsible for shouldering the responsibility of supporting the refugees.

The global compacts are essentially an effort to try to expand the responsibility sharing around the globe. A small number of countries are hosting refugees, and a relatively small number of countries are pursuing ways of supporting those host countries, whether it's with humanitarian assistance, development assistance or resettlement.

The real objective here is to expand the tent, to grow the number of countries that are engaged in the response to refugees, recognizing that global co-operation around this issue is essential. The idea of holding a forum is an element of the compact. The idea behind the forum is that every four years, ministers would gather together from around the world, make pledges about how they're going to respond to refugee needs around the world and share best practices. There would be an accountability mechanism as such, a reporting mechanism, that allows them to share how they've responded to those pledges over time. It's a very important element of the compact as it gives a forum, a platform, for demonstrating this responsibility sharing that I spoke of.

5:25 p.m.

Thérèse-De Blainville, Lib.

Ramez Ayoub

Thank you for your answer.

I'd like the document I just mentioned to be provided to the committee members. It talks about countries and the refugee issue, of course. It addresses the well-being of refugees, be they boys or girls, young or old. From the outset, the UN's focus was on protecting the world's most disadvantaged by bringing together the countries of the world under the auspices of the UN. This document is the UN's response to the recent migrant issues.

If Canada wasn't part of the compact, what impact would it have politically? By adhering to the compact, countries demonstrate a political commitment and political leadership. There are no signatories to the compact—simply those who adhere to it.

Ms. Kent, would you like to answer first?

5:25 p.m.

Director General, International Assistance Policy, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Deirdre Kent

In terms of both compacts, I can say for the global compact on migration that it is the first time the international community has come together for this type of framework on migration. While aspirational—not binding—it is allowing for lessons learned, knowledge sharing, best practices, collaboration and giving the UN a mandate to serve as a coordinator and allow for those best practices to be implemented for the benefit of the countries where there are the poorest and most vulnerable who are at the front lines—

5:25 p.m.

Thérèse-De Blainville, Lib.

Ramez Ayoub

Is there more to gain to be within the compact or to be outside the compact?

5:25 p.m.

Director General, International Assistance Policy, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Deirdre Kent

Certainly for Canada it is important to be in the compact in terms of creating a global framework and global co-operation for an issue where no one country can address migration on its own, and also in reinforcing the role of the multilateral system to support those efforts.

5:25 p.m.

Thérèse-De Blainville, Lib.

Ramez Ayoub

Thank you.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

Now we'll go to you, Mr. Tilson, but I'd like to squeeze in one question. You'll still get your time.

The question is for the Global Affairs officials. Our committee travelled to Uganda in June. Uganda is one of the countries that is a pilot project for the comprehensive refugee response framework, which is part of the initial covenant that was engaged in and then followed by the compacts now.

I'm wondering what kinds of discussions are being held on the way that Canada can support countries that engage in the framework, because we saw Canada's very limited ability to do refugee resettlement and a huge opportunity to help the host country, which is very poor.

Maybe officials from either department can talk, because I think it may change the way we do some international assistance and it may change the way we do a refugee response. Who would like to start it off?

5:25 p.m.

Director General, International Humanitarian Assistance, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Stephen Salewicz

I think it is a very interesting opportunity. Uganda has demonstrated a very progressive approach to refugees and, actually, through the comprehensive refugee response framework, there are a lot of opportunities.

For Canada, in Uganda we've focused on our humanitarian assistance, but in other countries we have good examples where we've taken that comprehensive approach. I'd point to Jordan as a good example of how we've used humanitarian assistance to respond to refugee needs, but we're also supporting development activities in Jordan—for instance, through the education ministry there, to expand opportunities and quality of education for Jordanians and to also within this approach support refugees at the same time.

We're looking at approaches that actually benefit host countries through their own development requirements but that also stretch out to meet the requirements of the refugees. I think that's really at the heart of what's behind the global compact for refugees. It's this opportunity that exists to move beyond the short-term humanitarian responses, which I'm responsible for and have a certain purpose, and actually grow the response to be much more sustainable and effective.

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

Ms. Greene, did you want to add something?

5:30 p.m.

Senior Director, Resettlement and Protection Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Susan Greene

If I could, yes. I want to reflect on the baton that gets passed from international assistance to immigration. As Mr. Salewicz mentioned, from a development and humanitarian perspective, you'll recall that education in crisis situations is very important. It's through mechanisms such as the comprehensive response framework that we can ensure education is provided to the youth and adolescents who find themselves in refugee camps and are no longer able to follow a school program in their native country.

Also, I want to reflect on durable solutions as well. For the refugee population, one possibility, as we say, may be to resettle to Canada or to another country, but the more likely possibility is for local integration. That's exactly what the comprehensive response framework is signalling.

Further on the education idea, though, I just wanted to flag that alongside our traditional resettlement programs there is also work being done to consider complementary pathways. If you educate a refugee, and then a refugee is available and able to go to university, there are pathways for those refugees to come to Canada, not as a refugee per se but as an international student. This is something that we have been working on with WUSC over a number of years. There are also pilots that are being worked on with the department to bring in economic refugees: people who can come, are skilled labourers and are able to work right away.

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

Thanks.

I'm at a very grassroots level on this. We were in the Kyangwali settlement of 100,000 people. Mr. Maguire and several of us were there. We saw power lines overhead. Transmission cables go overhead, and yet there is no transformer in the settlement for 100,000 people, so they have no electricity.

It's driving me crazy that Canada can't give them transformers. It's at that level of how we can broaden our understanding of international assistance to work with Uganda as they try to give opportunities to local host communities, as well as to these settlements—not encampments—through mobility, land, food, all of those things. The power is right there, but they can't get it.

That's my rant for the moment. If someone at Global Affairs—because it's not our work—could start to think about that, I think life would be better.

Mr. Tilson.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Mr. Chairman, to Mr. Salewicz or Ms. Kent, how can you assure me, and Canadians, that Canada will remain in complete control of our borders and our sovereignty after the adoption of these compacts?

5:30 p.m.

Director General, International Humanitarian Assistance, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Stephen Salewicz

I think it's been said many times already about the non-binding nature of this agreement.

I'm focused in my work on how to expand opportunities for finding solutions in regions where the refugees initially flee to. We're looking at those approaches to try to find solutions in Uganda and in other countries where they've initially sought asylum.

The UNHCR can advocate for changes all the time. I imagine that they have been advocating for changes over the last few decades around the world.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

I anticipated your answer, that you'd be saying it's non-binding, because that seems to be the tone of this meeting.

However, will there not be pressure by other member states to change our procedures and policies?

5:30 p.m.

Director General, International Humanitarian Assistance, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Stephen Salewicz

Maybe I could just speak from one perspective, and if my colleagues have more....

Canada is a world leader on dealing with refugees overseas. The GCR, the global compact on refugees, is fully aligned and looks to Canada for some of the best practices in terms of responding to refugee issues.

It is about codifying best practices for other countries to seek advice for improving the lot of refugees around the world and for improving the host country's efforts.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

I understand that, but I read somewhere recently in the media that 1.5 million asylum seekers have come to Germany in the last five years. The question from member states—I'm not saying Germany would do that—would be that Canada is not pulling its weight, we have to change our ways, as a result of these compacts.

That's the concern I'd like you to address, on whether that's possible.

5:35 p.m.

Director General, International Humanitarian Assistance, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Stephen Salewicz

There is the 1951 convention on refugees. There is an international legal system in place that provides for the treatment of refugees.

To suggest that a non-binding agreement somehow overcomes those.... I don't see it, but—