Evidence of meeting #147 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was years.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant
I'm sorry, I need to end you there.
I'll give Mr. Maguire and Ms. Kwan a little more time to make up for that.
February 28th, 2019 / 4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Welcome to the witnesses as well.
Mr. Kuijpers, I'd like to ask you this. There's been a much higher denial rate in the work permits issued by Canadian visa officials in the last few years. In many circumstances the farmer has spent, as you said, thousands of dollars and their LMIA was approved, but the Canadian visa official denied the work permit.
For our report, should we be looking further into this growing trend of work permit denials, and find ways to alleviate the denials from happening?
4:05 p.m.
Owner, Farming, Superior Weanlings Ltd.
Surely we need to deal with this. It's hurting. It's hurting the production of my farm, as I described. It's pushing our entire industry down by being less competitive compared to hog operations in the States. It's important for the rural economy that farms are able to operate. It's sad to say, but there's just way too much bureaucracy.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
You're on the short test. Thank you.
A lot of people can apply for the temporary foreign worker program through the provincial nominee program. I just want to find some kind of a permanent solution so that we can eliminate some of the labour gap that has been faced throughout the agricultural industry.
Do you recommend that we should create a pathway for farmers and agricultural businesses to sponsor and assist their employees to get permanent residency in Canada?
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
Thank you. That's pretty clear.
I want to ask Mr. McElhone the same thing.
There's no specific pathway for permanent residency for temporary foreign workers here in Canada now. Should we recommend to the IRCC that, after a certain number of years, they close the gap in the labour shortage that we have presently, a big one, in agriculture, that there be a clear pathway to permanent residency for individuals such as Llewellyn?
I appreciate the fact that you're both here with us today and that circumstances worked out well between the two of you. Can you just elaborate on how you see that working?
4:05 p.m.
Owner/Operator, Fox Sand Farming Limited
I do believe there should be a clearer path right now. To nominate somebody to come in, to farm in our area, we have to have at least three full-time employees. For farming a seasonal operation, where the majority of our crops are harvested and the majority of our work is...in less than eight months, it's hard to have three people who work, as it's dictated, a minimum of 35 hours a week, 52 weeks a year. It's hard for a farm operation to meet that standard. We're seasonal. We have peak times. We have people who are full-time, but they don't work 30-something hours in the off-season, in the winter. Little things like that need to be looked at to compensate for the fact that every bit of farming is seasonal. No matter whether it's birds or livestock, you have higher peak seasons that require more labour and more work, and times that don't. If there's an average, then we would have six people who qualify, not just three.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
Having farmed all my life, I understand your circumstance. I've spoken to a lot of farmers about this LMIA process and they're upset with the long wait times that we've had.
Should Service Canada have a guaranteed turnaround time for these applications?
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
4:10 p.m.
Owner/Operator, Fox Sand Farming Limited
Even if it were a couple of months, tops.... If it were less, that would be great. Even for SAWP, it used to take three to four months; now this past year it was less than two. So things are starting to look up there, but as far as the temporary foreign worker is concerned, it is a long, dragged-out process.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
Yes, I've talked to people who have taken six months to a year—
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
—and have had to wait under those circumstances, so I appreciate that as well.
If that's the case, should we be urging Service Canada to provide, in our report, greater transparency in those inspections? There are inspections by inspectors in our area and sometimes they have no knowledge when they arrive at the farm, I've been told, of what specific allegations were made about the farmer. Therefore the inspectors don't even know what they are looking for. In one circumstance, an inspector came out to their operation and admitted they had never been on a farm before.
I think there needs to be something there, but I'd like you to indicate what you think we should do to provide greater transparency in these inspections, to institute an appeal process not just for the employer, but for the employee as well, and to urge that all these inspectors have a basic understanding of the agriculture industry. Can you elaborate on that?
4:10 p.m.
Owner/Operator, Fox Sand Farming Limited
Yes. I did go through an integrity audit a year and a half ago. No offence to her, but the person who came out and investigated could not speak a word of Spanish, but she interviewed 19 Spanish-speaking Mexicans. A lot of them don't speak much English, or very little. She was asking them questions behind closed doors and my guys walked out of their meeting shaking their heads, saying they had no idea what she was talking about.
That said, the inspector had no idea; she had never been on a farm. She got in my truck to drive to the different work locations and said that was the first time she'd been in a pickup truck. Unfortunately, she was out of her element.
I have not had any word from my inspectors since February 22 of last year. Right now, as far as I know, my inspection is still ongoing and I haven't heard a single thing in over a year. Therefore, there needs to be a bit of transparency to the fact that my livelihood, my operation, was dictated by that inspection.
I did get an LMIA last year, very late. I jumped through a lot of hoops. Some of our workers came two months late. We were able to make it work, but that said, my inspector didn't ever talk to me or answer me. I had over 50 phone calls and not one returned.
Yes, there needs to be a little transparency and some knowledge that this is a business.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
I'll just interrupt you there, because I have one more question to get in.
The government just announced the rural and remote immigration pilot program, and there have been some unanswered questions in that. When people look at the criteria, there are a lot of concerns from the farmers I've spoken to.
Even in southern Ontario, in the heartland of agriculture in the province, they're locked out because of the criteria. Therefore, what should we recommend to IRCC in order to make all of rural southern Ontario eligible for that program? Should we just cover the whole region? If having a 75-kilometre radius to a city of 100,000 people excludes you, that covers pretty well all of southern Ontario, or southwestern Ontario at least. Can you elaborate on that?
4:10 p.m.
Owner/Operator, Fox Sand Farming Limited
In the little piece of paradise in which we live, there are a lot of veggies, a lot of labour-intensive crops and a lot of family farms. Their farms aren't thousands of acres. The average farm is 150 acres.
That said, yes, there's a need to tap into programs, but as you said, we don't qualify. We checked and we don't qualify.
Well, we're farming. If it's a temporary foreign worker and it's to help rural communities, I'm rural. I look outside and I don't have neighbours; I have fields and trees. I'm as rural as it gets, but I don't qualify.
If they're going to call it a rural and remote program, they need to either adjust it or redefine it, because I live in rural Ontario and I don't qualify.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant
I'm afraid I need to stop you there. We're quite a bit over the time.
Ms. Kwan.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
Thank you to all the witnesses.
I'm going to start off with Syed.
You were cut off in your opening statement. I just want to give you a chance to complete that. Perhaps you could spend a minute or so on finishing that, and then I want to ask some questions.
4:15 p.m.
Coordinator, Migrant Workers Alliance for Change
Just in addition, on the caregiver program, right now the interim program that has been created excludes workers who are undocumented. It requires one year of work experience, which many caregivers will not be able to get. As currently defined, it's actually going to shut out a lot of workers who it is supposed to meet. It's only a three-month window, from March 4, so for the next three months. We're on a very tight timeline and we really need it changed.
Lastly, we need Canada to actually follow international conventions on the rights of migrant workers. That includes the 1990 UN International Convention on the Protection of the Rights of All Migrant Workers and Members of Their Families and the ILO's Domestic Workers Convention. If we were actually signatories to them and followed them, a lot of what we've heard in terms of how badly workers are being treated would be dealt with.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
The temporary foreign workers pay into various programs. For example, they're taxed for employment insurance, which they're never really able to ever collect.
I'd like to get your comments on that with respect to that type of situation and structure. Is it a fair structure? How should it be adjusted?
4:15 p.m.
Coordinator, Migrant Workers Alliance for Change
In Ontario a few years ago, we did research and saw that, in an eight-month period, farm workers paid $350 million into EI, which they did not access. If you look at all HST, municipal taxes and federal taxes, migrant workers are actually subsidizing the social welfare system of this country because they don't access post-secondary education, and they can't get full health care, EI and CPP. It's an extremely unfair system. I think people want those basic rights and protections. Not only do they want those basic rights and protections, they've been subsidizing Canada for many years. It needs to be clarified that migrant workers are not a burden on the system, but rather are being exploited in this intersection between employers and government.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
In that context, the exploitation is coming from government because government is collecting those taxes and those individuals are never actually able to benefit from the tax dollars to which they contribute.
I want to turn to this issue of the pathway to permanent residence. Landed status on arrival is what I heard you suggest is an important principle that should be followed. I agree with that. It seems to me that, if we have a scenario whereby we actually have a need for these workers, I suspect the employer would want them to stay too and not have to go through this LMIA process every time, which is onerous and expensive.
I want to turn to the employers' point of view on that. I wonder if you can share with us how the government should adjust its immigration policies to ensure that there is landed status for these workers, but which also minimizes the cost and the burden on you as well, in the interest of both the workers and the employers.
Mr. McElhone, we'll start with you.
4:15 p.m.
Owner/Operator, Fox Sand Farming Limited
I would agree with the fact that landed status is a good idea. There should be some check-in to that to make sure those people are not going to be a strain on society.
That being said, the way it works now, we've already tried permanent residency. We're submitting again. We're a year in and with any luck, we will have it before Llewellyn's two-year work permit is up.
Now I should be trying to fill out a permit to get another worker, in case he has to go back, so I have somebody else in place. It's a merry-go-round of filling out paperwork to make sure I have somebody to become a supervisor. In all honesty, to have trained somebody for two years only to watch him leave, if he's a good employee and willing to work and he's not a strain on society...why not let him stay? Why not make it an easier path to help him stay?