Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 29th, 2019

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

I didn't lack an answer last time, and I'm going to tell you the same thing I've told you, which is that the safe third country agreement is a bilateral agreement between Canada and the United States. As such, any changes or any efforts to modernize the agreement have to be done in a bilateral fashion. That engagement is ongoing. Minister Blair can talk a little bit more about that, because he is now leading that process.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

I'm glad you mentioned Minister Blair, because I wanted to mention some of the work you've done on it. You met with the former United States secretary for the department of homeland security, Kirstjen Nielsen, on January 18, 2017. In an article, the National Observer reported on a briefing note that said, and I quote, that “the Safe Third Country Agreement 'is no longer working as intended.'”

Last year, on May 31, 2018, and again in those weeks you met with the U.S. Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security. At any of the meetings or at any other meeting that you've had with the officials of the American government, have you asked them to close the loophole in the safe third country agreement, because it is driving immense cost in your department?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

The safe third country agreement was signed in 2004. It's always good to look at an agreement that is that old to see if there are ways to modernize it. That's a position I've always taken. In addition to that, one of the ways it can be modernized, of course, is to utilize technology to enhance the agreement.

Again, to answer you question, when you have a bilateral agreement, you cannot change it unilaterally. Canada cannot just change that agreement by itself—neither can the United States. It has to be done together.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Okay, Minister. I'm going to ask you this. In what year would the Government of Canada like to have negotiations completed with the American government to close the loophole in the safe third country agreement, because of the cost drivers in your department? Perhaps I could just quote one number to you, so you could have it. In the PBO report, “Costing Irregular Migration across Canada's Southern Border”, they estimated that the per-person cost of these illegal border crossers is $16,666.

That's what I'm asking, again. Does the Government of Canada have a year, a harvest season, a month, a day, by which they would like to have the loophole closed in the safe third country agreement?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Since you again touched on the issue of costs, what drives up costs is a lengthy process for people whose lives are in limbo. It costs us more to do that. It also costs the provinces and territories more money to have asylum claimants who are waiting years for a hearing. That's the system we inherited. The system—

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

When will you close the agreement, Minister? It's a factual question.

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

The fact is that investing in the system to make sure that there is a fast, fair and final process for asylum claimants dramatically reduces the costs associated with processing asylum claimant cases.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

I'm going to go back again to the same question I've been asking you repeatedly, Minister.

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

And I'll give you the same answer.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

It's pretty simple. You're basically telling me that the Government of Canada has no timetable to complete these negotiations—

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

No, I'm telling—

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Pardon me, Minister. I'll let you speak uninterrupted after I'm done.

You're basically telling me there is no timetable for completing negotiations to close the loophole on the safe third country agreement.

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I think this is very redundant from what opposite members...questioning the minister, and the minister has mentioned that this is part of another ministry as well. I think Mr. Kmiec could direct his questions as well to another minister. I think it's out of his scope.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

On the point of order—

[The Chair, Liberal, Nick Whalen]

Sorry, I think I can rule quickly. Because you did bring the PBO into the question, it brings it within the scope for discussion on the main estimates. But I do acknowledge that I think we've received the same answer to the same question many times, and I think everyone understands that this is in fact the answer.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Mr. Chair, on the point of order, sir—I'm glad Mr. Tabbara was doing the point of order so it doesn't take away from time—I haven't received an answer. I've received responses, and responses are not answers.

All I'm asking—

[The Chair, Liberal, Nick Whalen]

Mr. Kmiec, I've already ruled that your question is in order, and you are allowed to proceed now with the remainder of your time.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Nick Whalen]

This is a five-minute round. You have about 50 seconds.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to go back to what I was saying before the interruption.

You were telling me that the Government of Canada has no timetable to complete these negotiations. However, all the numbers I've mentioned so far by the PBO, the $1.1 billion and up, by 2021; the AG's report with serious concerns.... The comments by the chair of the IRB this morning, reported in the National Post, paint a picture that unless you close this loophole, these costs will continue to go up in your department.

I understand that you perhaps can't give me a fixed timeline as to when the Americans would like to have it completed.

I'm asking you, when would the Government of Canada like to have this loophole closed in the safe third country agreement? Is there a year? Is it after the election or before the election?

[The Chair, Liberal, Nick Whalen]

Thank you. I think we'll have to wait until the next round of questions to get an answer to that.

I move now to Ms. Zahid.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thanks a lot, Minister. Thanks to all the officials also for joining us in the committee today.

Minister, among the many mean-spirited cuts in the last Ontario budget by the Doug Ford government, one of them was to eliminate the legal aid funding for refugees and immigration law services. The Canadian Association of Refugee Lawyers warns that these abrupt changes will have dire consequences for many.

For many of us, it was reminiscent of the Harper government's decision to slash health care coverage for refugee and asylum claimants.

Could you please assure us that, with the funding provided to the department in the main estimates, our government will continue to protect the rights of vulnerable immigrants and refugees?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

The commitment that we have as a government to provide due process to those who are seeking protection is very important. It's a priority that we have. It's very unfortunate to see that the Ontario government has cut legal aid funding for immigrants and refugees. Historically, Ontario's contribution has covered approximately 65% of the province's immigration and refugee legal aid expenditures, so these are cuts that will have significant consequences.

Of course, in budget 2019, we are investing almost $50 million over three years for immigrant and refugee legal aid. I am concerned about cuts that target people who are fleeing persecution and who would like to pursue an asylum claim in order to get Canada's protection. We must do what we can to make sure that these individuals have due process, and Ontario's cut to refugee and immigrant legal aid is a step in the wrong direction. It will hurt the most vulnerable.

I'm disappointed, but I'm not quite surprised. We have seen the track record of Conservatives, in all levels of government, targeting cuts precisely against community services that serve the most vulnerable in our society. The previous federal Conservatives, when they were in office, cut refugee health care, a practice that was deemed by the courts to be cruel and unusual treatment. This is in the same line, and it's really unfortunate that it has happened.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

My next question is on another important service on which many of the new immigrants rely, the settlement services. We have made significant investment in the settlement program this year, in line with the increase in immigration expected in the multi-year levels plan. We recently completed a study where we heard how important settlement services are and how they could be reformed.

How are you ensuring that settlement services meet the enduring needs of the newcomers to Canada?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

That's a very important question because we have a duty to each and every newcomer to Canada, not just refugees, but across all different streams of immigration. For those we invite to join our Canadian family, we have an equal obligation, at least to the extent that we can, to equip them with the tools they need to succeed in Canada.

That is not only the right thing to do and the humane thing to do; it is also the smart thing to do because the sooner they can succeed, the better it is for Canada, so funding for settlement and integration is key. It is why we're investing $777 million to fund settlement and integration in 2019-20. That's a 1% increase over last year's numbers.

We have funded over 500 organizations across Canada to provide language training, help find jobs and offer orientation to newcomers. Preliminary data shows that 485,000 clients received these services last year, already surpassing the previous year's total.

One of the advancements that needs to be made in the settlement sector that we are pursuing is to make sure, since not every newcomer has the same needs, that there is tailoring of different settlement services for different kinds of immigrants to ensure maximum impact and success.

Thank you.