Evidence of meeting #23 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was afghanistan.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:30 p.m.
Director, Office for Refugees of the Archdiocese of Toronto
Thank you.
We tried to negotiate with the government representatives so that there could have been a transitional period—let's say unlimited first come, first served until August 1—which would have been fair and would have encouraged the community to prepare their files for the most vulnerable so that we could submit them, but unfortunately this direction came without anything.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB
Was there any rationale given to you by the government on that?
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB
Do you think that changing this back to the previous policy would help to resettle some of the most vulnerable from the region?
4:30 p.m.
Director, Office for Refugees of the Archdiocese of Toronto
Unfortunately, what it has done is create a rush. People who have money can hire a lawyer or something so that they can quickly process these files and submit those sponsorships. It is not only our office, but every sponsor.
However, we are trying to help, with fundraising and donations, those people who are marginalized, the weak community members—especially the Yazidi community, which is one of the most marginalized communities in Canada. There's Project Abraham and other initiatives that we do. However, it's going extremely slowly, and we are running against time, because spots are working out.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB
Over the last two hours we've already heard, I think, a lot of bureaucratic language from some of the government members on this committee in terms of reasons we perhaps can't or shouldn't be processing, in an expedited way, applications for persecuted minorities. Certainly we're recognizing that there's a humanitarian crisis that affects many people, but is there something practical we can do?
We can talk until the cows come home about reasons why we shouldn't act. I feel as if the government is trying to make a case for why we shouldn't do this.
In your estimation, and based on the demand we're seeing from private sponsor groups to actually sponsor people who are among the most vulnerable groups, is there something we can do right now to help these groups? We know there are groups that have identified Yazidi sex slaves. We know that the UNHCR is.... What can we do right now just to try to do something to help these people who are being eradicated off the face of the earth?
4:35 p.m.
Director, Office for Refugees of the Archdiocese of Toronto
I think that we can rely on the civic initiatives. I speak on behalf of several sponsoring groups and committees without any type of special interest, just with the genuine interest of helping the most vulnerable Yazidis. I'm sure that if we could get permission from the government, we would sponsor internally displaced people from northern Iraq.
You go for prima facie recognition. You could use group processing. Then the private sector, with government assistance, could make a very unique, very historic move to help people who have never had any assistance until now in history.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB
How does the private sponsorship program help to accelerate the applications of groups like the Yazidis, which we've seen the UNHCR ask Canada to do? How does that stream help when perhaps we see backlogs or we hear from the UN that they don't really have a program in place to accelerate these applications, which might be coming through the government-sponsored stream? Could you talk about the importance of prioritizing ethnic and persecuted minorities through the private sponsorship stream, as well as the exemption on Iraqis that the government hasn't followed through on?
4:35 p.m.
Director, Office for Refugees of the Archdiocese of Toronto
Just two months ago I was on a mission to Lebanon. I was with a team of 12 trained volunteers and with local partners. I told them that I would pay for dinner for anyone who could find a Yazidi refugee in Jordan, and we couldn't do it.
It shows that in terms of refugee status determination, the UN's mandate is mostly focused on refugees who are outside of their country. They cannot even consider people who are inside their country for refugee status determination. The next step would be resettlement, but because of their mandate they are not able to do that. However, we and some other international organizations, such as the International Organization for Migration or the International Catholic Migration Commission, are worldwide when it comes to referring refugees. It would be very simple to go to northern Iraq and select refugees for resettlement.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB
As a representative of one of the largest private sponsorship organizations in the country, which has done incredible work, would you say it would be fair to have a recommendation to the government to follow through with the UN recommendation to accelerate Yazidi applications and prioritize them as a group through government-sponsored refugee streams, and to do whatever it takes through the privately sponsored refugee stream to see persecuted minority groups like this come to Canada through our program? Would that be a recommendation that you would give the government?
4:35 p.m.
Director, Office for Refugees of the Archdiocese of Toronto
Definitely, because the reason for their persecution is their religion. If it wasn't, then no, but in this situation if the reason for persecution is faith, we have to mention it and it has to be accelerated.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
Thank you very much.
Thank you to Senator Martin for coming to the committee.
I would like to follow up with you about the Senate's work on “The Forgotten Many: Human Rights and North Korean Defectors”. You were about to go into the recommendations, I think, and then you ran out of time, so I would like to focus on the recommendations.
Recommendation number one calls for a short-term solution for the North Korean defectors and for the minister to exercise his discretion under section 25 of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act to allow the entry into Canada of the most vulnerable North Korean defectors, such as those trapped in Thailand and other third countries, with particular attention to women and children. As well, the initiatives should include a pilot project in Thailand to identify appropriate North Korean candidates for resettlement in Canada. That's your first recommendation.
In that regard we heard earlier today from the officials that the government really only considers refugees if they have been processed and accepted through the UNHCR application process. This would be a group of people who would not fit that criteria. Can you talk a little bit about this first recommendation as a pilot project? Would that be to override the existing policy in place for identifying this group of refugees?
4:35 p.m.
Senator, Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the Senate, As an Individual
Thank you for the question.
It's creating an exceptional category through the minister's discretionary powers under section 25 of the act. I know that Dr. Mark is aware of the pilot project, which was also raised in the study in terms of what advocacy groups have said. He himself has been in the Thai detention centre, I believe, to understand the situation.
The minister has certain discretionary powers, as we heard from his officials, on a case-by-case basis, even though the Canadian officials are not in the detention centre—they don't have that access—and UNHCR does not deem North Korean defectors outside of the Korean peninsula eligible to be designated as refugees. They're kind of in a legal limbo, as I explained. We feel that one of the short-term solutions is for the minister to exercise such discretion, as has been done in the past. It has been used in the past for displaced people in similar situations, such as stateless Vietnamese refugees and Tibetans in India.
These special programs follow the private sponsorship of refugee programs. There are private organizations on the ground in Canada with the Yazidi community and the Korean-Canadian community and others, so we feel that this discretionary power could be exercised, with careful study. Perhaps that's something that could also be considered for the Yazidi people and other vulnerable groups.
4:40 p.m.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
Would you suggest that this pilot project identify privately sponsored groups? You're nodding.
4:40 p.m.
Senator, Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the Senate, As an Individual
Yes, absolutely. It's a pilot project, so it's to be tested in that way. We know already that Canadians have stepped up in their response to the Syrian refugees. There are very generous and capable community organizations and advocacy groups. I'm aware of certain service providers in Toronto that would also be able to help the vulnerable women who would need trauma counselling and other such services.
We have studied this very carefully over the years. This study happened recently, but it's a topic that was raised over the past few years with the previous government and the current one.
4:40 p.m.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
How many people would you suggest to the government if they were to undertake this as a pilot program? Do you have an identified number that you would recommend? How many people are at the Thailand detention centre? I see in the report that at any one time, it's between 100 and 200 people.
What is your sense of the scope or the size of the pilot program?
4:40 p.m.
Senator, Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the Senate, As an Individual
It's hard to answer with specific numbers. What we are aware of is that with the current regime, the numbers have dramatically dropped, because the borders are very tight and are being very carefully monitored. There's a lot more at risk, and there are fewer defectors able to make that escape. However, at any given time, there are 100 to 200 people in the detention centre. I think it's entirely up to the government of the day, should this be considered carefully for this group or other vulnerable groups, to do it in a way that builds capacity. It can't be done all at once.
They're not large numbers, in my opinion, given what the total numbers are at any given time.
4:40 p.m.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
Turning to the source country suggestion that was talked about earlier at the committee meetings, the suggestion—I think from Ms. Macklin—was to open this up to all the different groups in terms of source country. In identifying vulnerable persons seeking asylum or refugee status elsewhere, this process would be opened up to all the different groups. Is that the suggestion you're making, Ms. Macklin?
4:40 p.m.
Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Toronto, As an Individual
It would be open to whoever meets the refugee definition. Yazidis meet the refugee definition. There may be others who meet the refugee definition. You wouldn't want to pre-empt those who are in need of protection from accessing it on the grounds of their religion, as it were, in either direction.
May I go back for a moment and say something about the proposal regarding North Koreans, if I might?
4:40 p.m.
Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Toronto, As an Individual
It's a...proposal, but you have, I think, an existing problem you have to address. The previous government created a regime that designated certain countries as “safe”, and that designation was based on the premise that a refugee claim made by anybody who was a citizen of that country was, in the view of that government, not genuine.
Now it so happens, as Senator Martin said, that South Korea considers North Koreans to be citizens of South Korea, as it were. The intent of designating South Korea a safe country was really not to go after South Koreans but to prevent North Koreans who reached Canada from being able to successfully make refugee claims.
If you want this proposal to go forward, which is an interesting proposal and is certainly worth attending to, you would have to confront the contradiction that currently exists, which is that the designation of South Korea as a safe country effectively precludes North Koreans who actually physically reach Canada from making successful refugee claims. You might want to consider eliminating the safe country of origin if you want to go ahead with this proposal.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Borys Wrzesnewskyj
Thank you, Professor Macklin.
We now go to our next round.
Go ahead, Ms. Zahid, for seven minutes, please.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Salma Zahid Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON
Thank you, Chair.
I want to thank all of the witnesses for coming today.
My first question is for Ms. Macklin. How does the internationally accepted legal definition of refugees, which requires someone to have crossed an international border, complicate the ability of the international community to provide assistance to internally displaced persons, and how does lacking this legal refugee status endanger internally displaced persons?