Evidence of meeting #33 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was children.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jamie Liew  Immigration Lawyer and Law Professor, Faculty of Law, Common Law Section, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Lobat Sadrehashemi  Lawyer, As an Individual
Patricia Wells  Barrister and Solicitor, As an Individual
Anabela Nunes  Settlement Counsellor, Working Women Community Centre
Toni Schweitzer  Staff Lawyer, Parkdale Community Legal Services

4:15 p.m.

Lawyer, As an Individual

Lobat Sadrehashemi

Yes, I have. In terms of spousal sponsorships, it is faster.

But the point I was making was about the category of caregivers. That has not gotten faster.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON

So there has been no change in that specific category?

4:15 p.m.

Lawyer, As an Individual

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON

Okay.

The second question follows up on my colleague Ms. Kwan's question.

With respect to the terrible plight of people who are being abused, I wonder if there is a distinction, or if there should be a distinction, between reports by police officers and social workers, or is that something you think is not a problem?

4:15 p.m.

Lawyer, As an Individual

Lobat Sadrehashemi

I mean, if you look at the way the exception is written, it's very broad, and the guidelines that have been issued talk about a lot of different kinds of evidence as acceptable. That's not the issue.

The issue is, no matter what you do, no matter how you change that guideline, you still have to tell a woman who comes into your office, “You're going to have to apply and ask somebody to decide whether or not you meet the exception”, so that's the decision. Even if a reasonable person would say, “Of course you fit this exception”, they still have to report themselves and they are, then, at risk of possibly losing their status. A lot of women will not make that choice. On top of that, you have people who just don't even know that there is an exception, and have only heard that they have to stay and can't leave for two years.

It just causes, for what...? There is no evidence that it actually curbs marriage fraud, and we have other tools to deal with it.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON

Okay, thank you for that.

Ms. Nunes, you pointed out that the paperwork that people have to go through for the purposes of family sponsorship could be incredibly onerous and time consuming. Having had practical experience with the paperwork that has to be dealt with, did you have any specific recommendations as to what we could do without?

4:15 p.m.

Settlement Counsellor, Working Women Community Centre

Anabela Nunes

There are currently seven or eight different forms. Yes, some of them are very straightforward, but others, for example, the generic form, the sponsor form, I can't remember the exact number of that form, but that requires someone to have access to computers. Not everybody has computer skills. Not everybody who comes to our office speaks English because they might have been here for a short time. And those forms are very repetitive. Those two specific forms have to be validated and that will create a bar code, and that's the problem we are seeing at our centre. We've submitted applications four or five months ago and they update the forms and they return the entire package. It is very frustrating for the client because this is a waiting game. They are anxiously waiting for a positive decision and when it comes back to them, it is devastating.

There is, for example, the background application that specifically asks for information regarding work history and addresses since the age of 18. I've had applications returned sometimes seven, eight months after because there was a gap of one month that was not accounted for. Someone who has never done a sponsorship application wouldn't know that. Maybe they could simplify the forms, have shorter forms, I don't know. But it is very time-consuming.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON

Okay, thank you.

I have some time remaining, and I'd be remiss, Ms. Nunes, if I didn't ask you about this program I understand is referred to as the HIPPY program, which engages parents and grandparents in the educational opportunities provided to children. I was wondering, just out of curiosity, did you find that this benefits the parents just as much as it does the children in understanding how things work in this country? Could you explain that?

4:20 p.m.

Settlement Counsellor, Working Women Community Centre

Anabela Nunes

I'm afraid I know very little about the program. I apologize. We do have a specific team of workers who work just with that program. I know they are very successful. They have a lot of families currently registered and they have assisted many children, but I wouldn't know any specifics on it. I'm sorry.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON

That's no problem. Thank you.

Ms. Liew, one of the questions we are asking people is whether in your experience sponsored parents or grandparents make unique contributions to the development of children. I was wondering if you could share your experiences with us.

4:20 p.m.

Immigration Lawyer and Law Professor, Faculty of Law, Common Law Section, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Jamie Liew

Yes, I definitely think they do make a huge contribution to Canadian culture and society. One of the misconceptions is that they are a drain on our system, but I think that's ignoring the contributions they make within families either through child care or through supporting families as they integrate into Canadian society.

The other thing is that I think there needs to be a greater recognition that family units may be understood differently in different cultures, especially in Asian cultures, a culture that I'm familiar with. Parents and grandparents often live with or are in very close proximity to the family units where children live and contribute in various ways, and this needs to be recognized.

The other thing I think that's often forgotten is that these people have investments, their own economic history, and they will bring it with them to Canada. If you allow these people to come to Canada, often they're not just elderly, ill people, they are also people who can further contribute to Canadian society through their investments, their spending, innovative ways they could generate activity socially, culturally, or economically. There's a lot of misunderstanding with regard to parents and grandparents and what they could contribute to our society.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Borys Wrzesnewskyj

Thank you.

Mr. Saroya, you have five minutes, please.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Saroya Conservative Markham—Unionville, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks again to all the witnesses who have come forward.

All of you have talked about the criteria for sponsors, and that the age of 18 years should 22 years or 24 years or whatever number. What is your opinion about what the age should be? What would the implications be, if we moved the age from 18 to 24? If the age goes from 18 years to 24 years old, we bring in so many families a year—let's say 18,000 family members a year—that when we raise the age we will be leaving some families behind. What is your opinion?

4:20 p.m.

Barrister and Solicitor, As an Individual

Patricia Wells

I'm not sure I understand your question. Is it that there would be fewer people coming?

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Saroya Conservative Markham—Unionville, ON

In 2016 we will be bringing 80,000 family class immigrants, of whom 20,000 are to be parents and grandparents. When we move the class up for the other extra children to come in this situation, it will affect the other family members who will not make it to the.... What is your idea? What do you think?

4:20 p.m.

Barrister and Solicitor, As an Individual

Patricia Wells

In order to bring more in one class, it would have to cut out more...?

The problem with having an unreasonably low age of dependency, such as 18, is that Canada is losing out on some families. In my own experience in my practice, I have seen this. Once they hear a family—say they are skilled workers and they may have been working here for a while and their children are going to university in Canada, for instance, and making their home in Canada.... When I tell people that when they apply for permanent residence they will have to choose whether to stay in Canada without their older children or go back home, I have had clients who have decided that they can't split up the family and will simply choose some other country where they can remain together as a family.

I don't have any hard statistics on this, of course, but I think what Canada is losing by not allowing entire families to immigrate should be taken into account in the study you are doing .

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Saroya Conservative Markham—Unionville, ON

Does anybody else have any comment?

4:25 p.m.

Immigration Lawyer and Law Professor, Faculty of Law, Common Law Section, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Jamie Liew

I could give a personal account. I represented a client once during the time when the age was going to be lowered to under 19, and we were frantically putting together her application for that, because her son simply fell into this arbitrary number of “over 19”. It neglects to consider the situation of families with children who are still undergoing post-secondary education, who are contributing to the family in a different way. It's still a young enough age that they still have huge potential to contribute to Canadian society. It's short-sighted to think that the cutoff at 19 is appropriate. It seems arbitrary, in essence, given the age group of people who are attending post-secondary education.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Saroya Conservative Markham—Unionville, ON

A sponsor must show that he or she has the income to support the sponsored family members, and this proof must come from tax returns from Canada Revenue Agency.

What is your opinion on this, if people can show that they can afford those family members coming to the country?

4:25 p.m.

Barrister and Solicitor, As an Individual

Patricia Wells

The only time this comes into play is if they are sponsoring parents or grandparents. I believe someone in the next session may be speaking about that.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Saroya Conservative Markham—Unionville, ON

Does this cause any difficulties?

4:25 p.m.

Barrister and Solicitor, As an Individual

Patricia Wells

It's been very onerous; I think all of us have found that. It's a very much increased level of support that you need in order to provide for parents and grandparents than that, for instance, needed to support other family members. It's the low-income cutoff plus 30%. The fact that people have to show that income in one specific way—as you say, just from their CRA notices of assessment, basically—and that it has to be for three years automatically means that there's going to be a delay in that family's reunification, because the person will have to wait at least three years in order to show that proof and be able to start sponsoring their parent or grandparent. That process is now taking about two years, so there are six years of non-family reunification.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Borys Wrzesnewskyj

Thank you.

Ms. Zahid, you may take five minutes, please.

October 20th, 2016 / 4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Salma Zahid Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to take this opportunity to thank all our witnesses for providing their very important input into our study.

My first question is for Ms. Sadrehashemi. One issue I have heard a lot from my constituents in the riding of Scarborough Centre is that often IRCC officials tasked with determining whether or not a marriage is valid may not be sensitive to certain cultural practices that could make a relationship appear unusual by western standards. Women, in particular, often feel very nervous in these interviews and can make innocent mistakes in their answers that can unfairly prejudice their application. Could you discuss any experiences you and your clients have experienced in this area, and do you have any recommendations on how these necessary evaluations can be made more culturally sensitive?

4:25 p.m.

Lawyer, As an Individual

Lobat Sadrehashemi

Yes, that's a great question. Definitely, that is a problem, because the officer is tasked with figuring out the genuineness of the relationship, but all these relationships are happening in all sorts of different cultures of which the officer likely doesn't have a real understanding.

A lot of the types of questions that are asked are very intrusive, and a lot of women I've spoken to feel very uncomfortable discussing with a male officer sexual questions about their relationship. That is just one example, but there are all sorts of examples of the problems, and sometimes there isn't corresponding thoughtfulness about how much weight should be given to the answers that are given in these types of interviews when looking at the application overall.