Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Dec. 13th, 2016

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Jenny Kwan]

Committee members, I call the meeting to order, please.

As you know, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), today we're studying the motion adopted by the committee on October 4 to resume the study of the modernization of client service delivery.

We have for the first hour, 3:30 to 4:30, two witnesses. The first one, from the Canadian Association of Professional Immigration Consultants, is Dory Jade, the chief executive officer. We also have a presenter from the Canadian Council for Refugees, Loly Rico, president. She comes to us by video conference, and she is in Toronto today.

Welcome to our witnesses. We'll begin with Mr. Jade.

You have seven minutes to make a presentation, and then we'll move to Ms. Rico for seven minutes.

[Dory Jade, Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Association of Professional Immigration Consultants]

Hello. Good afternoon, Madam Chair, respected members of the committee, and ladies and gentlemen. Thanks for inviting me today to present on the modernization of client service delivery. I'm the chief executive officer of the Canadian Association of Professional Immigration Consultants, CAPIC. We are the association that represents immigration consultants in Canada. Across Canada, we have four chapters and about 1,500 members.

Thank you for inviting us to appear before the committee today.

I'm pleased to be here and to give you a presentation on the modernization of IRCC's client service and other services.

The presentation was submitted to you in English; however, it's a pleasure for me to answer your questions in French or English.

As an introduction, I would like to start by mentioning that IRCC processes millions of applications. These include temporary residency applications, PR applications, eTAs, and ATIP applications. I'm using acronyms to make things fast. I believe we are all familiar with these acronyms.

Throughout the years, we've made improvements throughout the system. However, in an era of technology, today it is time for IRCC to be on top of the technology and to offer adequate and respectful—excuse me; respectable—service to the clients.

I'll start with the communication offered by IRCC. In fact, this is split into three categories.

The first one is personalized messages. These are mainly the letters that the candidates and the immigration consultants who are their representatives receive, in the name of their client, to advise them about the status of the case, the decision, and/or other required documentation.

The second category of communication is automated messages. Under the new system and with electronic services, IRCC has been starting to send what we call massive communication to its clients, advising them about an issue, etc. The point here is that so far we have been struggling with the fact that IRCC has been sending some messages that really are not personalized. Therefore, these messages are missing the names, file numbers, and contact information of the authorized representative. This is a point that we would like to raise today.

The third category is the call centre. Here I would like to commend the move that it made. I'm not sure if you have tried the call centre recently, but the message, way, and approach are completely different. We are happy to see this kind of approach from IRCC. To give you an example, the previous message used to start by saying something like, “If you are offensive to our staff and to the people on the call, then we will take measures, and we will hang up.” The new message says something more like, “Welcome. Thanks for calling Immigration and Citizenship Canada.” This is a big change.

We also would like to recommend that our centre agents be split into categories so that some of them would be more senior. Then we would have the option that they would speak to immigration consultants who represent clients on specific files. We believe that in this way—by asking immigration officers to make changes and by sending them emails, and so on—we can save a lot down the road. We could call a specific phone line to ask for minor changes on the file.

Now I'll move to the processing times. We all know that the processing times have reached unacceptable levels.

I think Minister McCallum is to be highly commended on the final decision he has taken. We know how many resources and how much funds it would take to lower the family class processing time to 12 months. However, that is in comparison to an express entry application. For express entry, the candidate is invited to apply, and it is a process of six months or less. We are still putting our humanitarian and non-economic classes behind. These are 50% slower than the economic class.

Another aspect I would like to touch on is what is known as GCMS, the global case management system that is running the whole operation in IRCC, in CBSA, and, of course, other agencies. With this system, there is something called the APR portal, the authorized paid representatives’ portal, which allows us and authorized representatives to have access to their clients securely. It also allows us to send applications to Immigration Canada and submit applications of all types, except family class, so far.

It allows also the department to move files in crisis zones. For example, you may have a crisis in one zone, so now electronically and securely, without diplomatic bags, they can transfer complete office files to another file or retrieve them from Canadian processing centres and so on, electronically and securely.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Jenny Kwan]

Thank you, Mr. Jade. Your seven minutes are up.

[Dory Jade]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Jenny Kwan]

Thank you for that.

We will move to Ms. Rico. You have seven minutes.

[Loly Rico, President, Canadian Council for Refugees]

Good afternoon.

Thank you for inviting us to come and talk about the modernization of services. As you know, the Canadian Council for Refugees is a national organization that accommodates more than 180 member organizations serving immigrants and refugees. We are very concerned in relation to the modernization of services happening within the IRCC. We want to talk a little bit more about how it impacts refugees and vulnerable migrants.

One of the things we have been seeing is that with the modernization, the changes on the website and online have been especially impacting refugees and our member organizations. They have been burdened by the work that has been downloaded onto them in terms of all the forms and also in applying.

I want to give you two examples of the impacts. One is that people have to pay for any of the applications, such as when refugees apply for permanent residence as convention refugees, or when people apply under humanitarian and compassionate grounds, or for work permits. They have to pay online. If you look at the online payments, you see that they're focused on immigrants.

When you talk about refugees, first of all, refugee claimants who've just arrived in Canada don't have access to credit cards. One of the problems we have seen is that it puts them in a vulnerable situation, because he or she has to count on a friend to give the credit card, or some of the settlement workers have to lend their credit card as a way to pay the fees. In the past, it was possible for the person to go and do the payment at any bank and then send a proof of payment. That was easier, because the person could go to the bank and send it by mail.

That's one of the challenges we've been seeing.

As well, when it's online, some of the refugees don't have either the access to computers or the expertise in terms of technology experience. Many come from either a refugee camp or countries where access to computers is more difficult.

The other example I want to bring to you is with regard to prepaid credit cards. We have been bringing this up at our round tables with the IRCC. They say that the person can buy a prepaid credit card, but on the prepaid credit card we haven't had a satisfactory response from the IRCC, because the prepaid credit card is always a very low amount of money.

The other point is that the electronic fill-in forms have also been a burden, especially with private sponsorship. To give you an example, schedule A is the form in which you need to declare what has happened or what you've doing for the last 10 years. You're trying to connect through Skype and fill in all the information with the client when they're outside the country. Even when you are doing the forms or the work permits here in Canada, it takes longer. That is one of the challenges.

We do see a positive in that when it's done online, we can scan all the IMM forms. Most of the time, private sponsors can save money on UPS and couriers, because they don't need to send it.

I also want to bring forward the fact that in the modernization, they have been increasing some of the fees, but there's no consistency from the IRCC officers. As an example, if a refugee claimant is refused, they have to pay the fee for the work permits. If you read online, they say that they increased it by $100, but it's not related to refused refugee claimants. When we tell that to the client and fill out the forms and do the payment, sometimes they send the application back because some of the officers are asking for $100.

What I'm trying to say is that the modernization of the service has some inconsistencies, and also there is no harmonization in the information that they provide to the immigration officers. For example, if you call the call centre, it gives you different information. We are recommending to the IRCC that, first of all, it take into serious consideration that if it is going to do a modernization and do everything online, it needs to consider the diversity and the different categories that are involved in immigration.

Also, in the past all of these have been focused on the economic perspective, but we also need to focus on the refugees and on how the vulnerabilities happened. At CCR we are concerned that sometimes when they start looking for help, they can be taken advantage of or exploited by having to pay fees for something that they could do for free if the access were more understandable. We also look at whether they are going to do the morning sessions for services. We also look at them talking to NGOs and having a consultation with them, because we are the ones doing things on the front line and working with the clients and doing the clear work.

One of the things we are looking at with the modernization is effectiveness. We have been saying to the IRCC and even to the minister that, for example, one aspect of the modernization should be to speed up the processing times, especially for family reunification. That is not happening. Also when a person is making a refugee claim, at the same time they could be using the interim federal health program and they could be issued a work permit. In that case, the person could start working.

That concludes my remarks.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Jenny Kwan]

Thank you very much, Ms. Rico. That's perfect.

We will move on to the rotations for seven minutes each. I have Mr. Tabbara first.

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you to both of our witnesses for being here today as we conduct our study on modernization of client services delivery.

My first question will be to both of you, but I'll start with Mr. Jade.

Do you have any suggestions for how technology can play a better role in improving the client services experience?

[Dory Jade]

Thanks for the question. In fact we have also brought a few recommendations. Most of them are based on technology.

Number one, when an officer is making a decision, the officer puts notes into the case file. When a case is represented by an authorized representative within the GCMS system and within the AR portal, it could be very securely available to get those notes, so in this way we would save time by not having to make another access to information application. This would be in the same portal through which we submit. We could have double-direction communication.

We also recommend creating additional levels of call centres. This way, with technology you would just need to go through the call centre and find a more senior agent who could answer your question if it was not a basic question but was pertaining to a specific case.

We have also some other points that we want to bring forward. Tracking is very important. More than 3,000 complaints were received last year by IRCC, and the large majority were very focused on the fact that the client didn't know where his or her file was. That's really what it was. I think having something like the tracking systems that all of the courier services have now: when you order something, you know where it is in transit, and then at the end of the day it gets to you. That would be a very good practice that IRCC could start within the AR portal. That way authorized representatives could know through tracking that the case was with a particular officer. The names of officers would not be disclosed. Most of the time officers have used their initials and they could continue doing so to respect their privacy. There is no issue with that, but at least we would know where the case was and we could follow up accordingly.

Those are some of the points we have brought forward in terms of technological access to the system.

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

We'll go to our second witness.

[Loly Rico]

One of the things I believe is that if you go online to the website, one of the positive things is that the accessibility is faster, but all the websites have been arranged as though the person is going to be represented by someone, either by a lawyer or by a consultant. Many of them don't have the economic capacity to be represented, and they have to go to community services. When we say the website has to be facilitated, we mean that the person must be able to fill out the forms. You could have guidance or orientation in different popular languages. It could be Mandarin, Spanish, or any language, so that they can understand the forms. For example, when you are looking for an extension visa, which could be simply an extension of a work permit for a refugee claimant, it is necessary to fill out those forms. That's why we say to facilitate it so that refugees can have a work permit when they make the refugee claim.

The concept right now is that people have to be represented legally by a lawyer or by a consultant. We are advocating that people have the possibility to fill out their own forms if they can do it.

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

You briefly touched on my question, Mr. Jade.

With regard to the levels of call centres you were mentioning, there are a lot of times we get a request for a status update in our offices for a certain client. It takes a lot of our time to find the specific status update, instead of cases where more information is needed and it may require more time.

What would you recommend for a simple status update? You were mentioning the levels of call centres. What would you recommend?

[Dory Jade]

That's more about complex cases. However, in terms of status updates, we know it can be done through the system with interactions we have regularly with IRCC. We are recommending that within the portal, you have a section that tells you exactly where every specific case stands. Every officer working on the case is tracked with the new system. All it requires is a second level of security, allowing more access.

What's going on now with all MPs—and we hear it every time we come to Ottawa—is that they are swamped by requests from their own constituents saying they don't know where their case is. Maybe it's been a year. This is exactly what the complaints are about. In order to satisfy those individuals, in my opinion, we recommend that at least they know where the case is. That's all. I don't think this is difficult technologically. This should be easily done through the process.

Right now, if you have a case—and I'm sure many assistants in your offices will tell you—there can be about three or four statuses. They are fixed: open, closed, in process, and I think, decision to be taken. I'm not really familiar with all of them, but there are not more than four statuses. I think tracking the case, when a case takes a year, is important for a client. This is where technology can play a big role helping IRCC to do better.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Jenny Kwan]

Thank you very much.

We'll move on to our next speaker.

Mr. Saroya, you have seven minutes.

[Bob Saroya, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you so much, Madam Chair.

We talked about the call centres. How often do both of you see these issues? I'm talking about practical situations.

In the past summer, my office tried to call the call centre over and over. The answer had something to do with a PR renewal. They were told it was not ready yet. When I called the minister's office, the answer I got was that it was not ready yet. When I called the client to say I was sorry, but it wasn't ready yet, he said, “Oh, no, sir; I got it a couple of days ago.” How often do you see these things? This is something I dealt with, and I was embarrassed by the whole situation.

How often do you see stuff like this, and what can be done?

[Dory Jade]

This happens. It's a matter of consistency. Sometimes in a visa office or a processing centre, this is very common. The officer would finish his job and on an operations side would not put the exact information into the system. The letter or the work permit, or whatever the extension was, was sent to the client. However the call centre could not see it.

I'm not privy to the details of how the system works. However, this happens from time to time, and I can tell you that the GCMS, the system that is used right now, is the best system to get this result, because it is instant. When you make a change, it automatically affects all individuals who see the file. It's human error these days; before it used to happen very often.

[Bob Saroya, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Is this new, or are we assuming it's coming up, or is this old stuff?

[Dory Jade]

The new system is not supposed to make these mistakes anymore, except for human error, but it used to be the case. If a case is processed in Vegreville, for example, and you're checking the case in Ottawa and a decision has been taken on the case, by the time you know the decision has been taken, because of the time difference.... I don't think this would happen now, except for human error.

[Bob Saroya, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Ms. Rico, did you want to add something to that?

[Loly Rico]

Yes. It's still happening. I think that one of the problems that we see is that even though there is a system, it looks as if there is not clear communication in the call centre, because when you or even the clients make these phone calls, sometimes they say “There is nothing we they can say” or they will say they cannot give you that information or they say it is in process. Then, a few hours later, you go to your house and the work permit is in the mail, or they may even say they sent you the work permit, but the work permit still hasn't been sent.

I think we are now into the technological process, but we have been seeing there is still not clear communication among the different officers who are working on the file and the call centre. One of the challenges with the call centre and the website is that the person wants to know how their process is going, and when they call the call centre, they only say it's in process and they cannot explain what's going on. That makes for a lot of anxiety for the client.

Also, on the website—I totally agree with my colleague—there are only four categories, and when they say it's in process, you can keep seeing that the file is in process for six months or a year. That's one of the challenges we have been seeing.

Still you have the same answers that we have as community workers. Sometimes we look as if we don't know anything.

[Bob Saroya, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

We're talking about improving the system. As you know, we have limited budgets, and more than 50% of our work is making the calls to the call centre and following up with constituents and the call centre. Do both of you have any suggestions on how we can improve it?

[Loly Rico]

First of all, it would be simpler in the call centre to press “1” for citizenship, “2” for immigration. When you want to have the status or the change of address, for example, if you are going to make the change of address you can do it online, but refugee claimants cannot.

I believe what they need to do is improve the simplicity of the use of the call centre and the simplicity of the website and have the same communication.

[Bob Saroya, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Is there anything you would like to add?

[Dory Jade]

I would like to add one thing. I tried the call centre today before coming, just to make sure how it works. I agree that they started to do that. You press up to seven sections.

I think what needs to happen would be that more of the technicalities and the skills need to be given to every one of those agents. Some of them should be more focused on refugees, some more focused on work permits, some more focused on PR. This is the key. Even if you can press a certain button to go somewhere, the person who answers you needs to be able to reply to that particular request.

[Bob Saroya, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

On a different topic, this is from personal experience in the last year. If people who sponsored their parents or anybody else went for professional help, my experience is that they were approved 80% to 90% instantly, and they were done. The people who filed their own applications, who didn't have the $500 or $1,000 to pay somebody—