Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Dec. 13th, 2016

[David Nurse]

No, I don't know why there would have been an increase. In my experience, the ability for clients to get direct information from IRCC, formerly CIC, has not changed dramatically in the past 10 years. I would have seen going to an MP as a last resort 10 years ago, and I would still see that to be the case. I have no answer as to why there would be an increase.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

My next question is for both of you.

Very many of the requests that my office receives—and the same applies to all MPs' offices—are simple requests for information on the status of their cases. They would like to know what stage their case is at. These requests are simple but very time-consuming. Do you have suggestions on how the burden could be shifted back to the department, allowing the MPs' offices to focus on the more complicated cases where specific issues have arisen?

[Richard Kurland]

Why, yes.

The question for members of Parliament is, do you have the same level of demand for CRA-related cases? How is it that there's no special hotline into CRA, just immigration? As long as you accept this, it will continue.

One way is to go public, which is not difficult for a member of Parliament. It is IRCC off-loading on your offices, as members of Parliament, the task of duly informing status updates for IRCC's clientele. IRCC knows full well the identical information can be obtained the same way using authorized third-party representatives rather than your staff. I know of no reason that a regulated professional, provincially or federally, cannot step up to the plate and use the same phone number contacts you presently use to obtain the same information without your resource usage. There is no logical reason.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Mr. Nurse, would you comment?

[David Nurse]

One of the solutions put forward to this committee by Mr. Orr from IRCC when he was here was a more client-friendly call centre approach. They would actually help the person to navigate the system, give them updates, look back at previous notes, and refer to prior questions that had been asked so that the person feels, at the end of the call, as though they have received some satisfaction.

In my view, that would go some way to reducing the demands on MPs' offices. At least in my experience, we go to the MP's office because we get the pat answer, whether from an online inquiry or a call centre, that it's “in process”. Even if it's far beyond standard processing times or it's clearly an unusual case, you still get the same answer.

My hope is that IRCC will implement changes that will allow the call centre agents to take some initiative and properly inform people about their cases. That may reduce some frustration and some unnecessary calls to your office. You're getting the same information that I'm getting and that the client is getting. It is an absurd duplication, in my view.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you.

In improving customer service, how important is it to empower front-line workers to have more flexibility in decision-making? Do you have any suggestions for policy changes that would empower front-line workers at the IRCC and give end-users a better experience getting the information and help they need when writing the department or contacting a call centre?

[Richard Kurland]

I'm going to blow any chance I ever had at a Senate seat with this answer.

At the time, it was Mr. Peter Harder who was deputy minister at the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, and he took an executive decision to close immigration centres to the public. Ever since that happened, access to decision-makers and to case information was staved off. We've never cut that Gordian knot since.

How do you resolve this? The artificial intelligence system, based on documents obtained under access to information, is designed to resolve 70% of temporary status cases. In other words, of the one million temporary resident visas in a year, 700,000 would be dealt with through AI. That may leave on the table more human resources to deal with front-line issues. It may provide that window of opportunity to relieve the burden on the offices of the members of Parliament.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Nurse, would you like to comment?

[David Nurse]

Yes, thank you.

I think it is difficult to immediately come up with policy changes that would allow faster decision-making.

As you know, the call centre agents are really just, in my understanding, looking at the notes and the GCMS and providing a statement on the status. Even if they could provide a bit more of a human experience, they're not decision-makers. They are not. The person on the phone is not the officer with the file, and they're not able to say, for example, “Thank you. I now know that's submitted. I can move this to the next stage.” That doesn't happen. I think it's unlikely to happen.

Whether there was some way for MPs to request that a matter be escalated to some level where review of the file could occur, I can't really say.

[The Chair, Liberal, Borys Wrzesnewskyj]

Thank you, Mr. Nurse.

Ms. Rempel, you have seven minutes, please.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

To both of the witnesses, I expect that one of the themes we're going to hear over and over again in the testimony in this study is that we need more resources, but the people who have offered that so far have not been particularly specific in that. I'm just wondering if you feel that is the issue. If so, what does “resources” mean, and is there any pedantry in the process that could be eliminated to provide better access or better efficiency with the resources that we already have in place? That's question number one.

Question number two, Mr. Nurse, is about your comment around the process being very faceless. I would agree with you, given that when people contact my office, it's because they feel as though they haven't reached a human being. When you made that comment, I was wondering, in the context of what I just asked in terms of resources and process, how can we humanize the process? Are there key choke points with service delivery where that could be fixed?

I can let you go first. Go ahead.

[David Nurse]

Sure. Thank you for the question.

I don't necessarily think it's a question of resources. I don't have an encyclopedic understanding of IRCC's budget. In many places, it's a question of tone, responsiveness, and attitude. I guess that's one thing about that humanizing experience with the call centre. It's so much attitude, in my clients' and my own experience, in what we get.

I think that there are efficiencies, and my colleague spoke about the online system and what's been automated and what more could be automated. Obviously, having paperless applications offers huge potential savings, which I think are being realized. I don't have any other.... In terms of choke points, perhaps CIO Sydney, which I referred to earlier, where there are paper applications still being processed, could be moved online so that there's equivalency with express entry applications that we now do online.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Mr. Kurland, would you comment briefly?

[Richard Kurland]

My goodness, the last processing fee review was done when?

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I'm not sure.

[Richard Kurland]

Was it 2001 or 2002? The only recent fee change reduced processing fees. For the combination of multiple entry temporary resident visa, a single entry, visitor extensions, and restorations, the average processing cost for that cluster of four is $106. What happened was that the $150 fee for an MTRV was reduced to $100.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

As your recommendation here, are you saying we should review the fees for processing services?

[Richard Kurland]

Absolutely.

In the old days, the Government of Canada had to examine educational credentials and language capability. We upload third party credentialling certificates. That cost component is included in the old processing fees, but no one has ever examined whether anyone's making a profit or not.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I'm sorry to interrupt. I want to leave some time for my colleague, Ms. Harder.

Mr. Nurse, you commented on attitude, and I think it's come up as a theme. Without denigrating the public service, I think it's something that is going to come up over and over again.

Could you just very briefly explain what that means to you and perhaps provide a concrete recommendation for performance management outcomes or something that could be inserted into front-line workers' performance reviews or something to that effect, and could you quantify what that means?

[David Nurse]

Sure. I think it's a matter of training and a matter of the instructions that are given to the front-line staff. I think they are doing their best, and I think sometimes we get absolutely fantastic service from ESDC or IRCC, but often we don't. I honestly believe it comes down to training and the expectations that are given to staff for what their deliverables are. Is it to get off the phone as fast as possible, or is it something else?

When Mr. Orr was here, and I listened to that. I think he did talk about changing the script and the tone. I think those things would make a dramatic difference. I don't run a call centre, but you have a policy manual, and people have a script as to how they interact and how they enter those conversations and navigate people.

I don't think there's a huge performance gap with the staff—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I'm just going to pass the microphone over to my colleague Ms. Harder. I know she wants to follow up with one of the concepts you raised.

[The Chair, Liberal, Borys Wrzesnewskyj]

You have two minutes.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Mr. Kurland, my question is to you. You raised this point with regard to the Canada Revenue Agency, and I find it a fascinating one. Can you expand a little bit for me with regard to the best practices that we could adopt from the CRA and bring over to the IRCC? Could you outline that within the brief minute and a half?

[Richard Kurland]

In 90 seconds, should the design of the IRCC website regarding modernization be disclosed, we would then be in a position to judge whether the CRA model for intake and information distribution is better.

CRA has a single portal. You input your personal information, and they've already invented a secure transmission situation. If an individual were to pass through the immigration continuum from visitor to PR to Maple Leaf Card renewal to citizen, that individual portal could generate and regenerate updated information. Questions could appear based on the service that was selected. The complexity of the IRCC website could be simplified by following the CRA model.

[The Chair, Liberal, Borys Wrzesnewskyj]

You still have 30 seconds.