Evidence of meeting #45 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ircc.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Dory Jade  Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Association of Professional Immigration Consultants
Loly Rico  President, Canadian Council for Refugees
Richard Kurland  Lawyer and Policy Analyst, As an Individual
David Nurse  Counsel, McInnes Cooper, As an Individual

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

You're asking specifically about inquiries around processing times?

4:30 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Association of Professional Immigration Consultants

Dory Jade

Mostly.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

In that instance, for the casework that I would get through my office, we phone a special hotline for MPs about it, but are you saying that some of your clients basically do not have adequate access to service in terms of their ability to pick up the phone?

4:30 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Association of Professional Immigration Consultants

Dory Jade

No. As an MP, under the law, you have particular access to this information, so perhaps what IRCC could do for you is give you a kind of portal through which you could see more information easily, instead of calling that centre and going through it to get the information that you need. Then IRCC will save, probably, on operations—

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Is there any—

4:30 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Association of Professional Immigration Consultants

Dory Jade

—and it would make the information easily accessible because you have it, under law, as an MP.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

In the time that I have left, could you provide your two or three top concrete recommendations in terms of change around service delivery, based on what your organization has heard and on what your clients are saying? What would those recommendations be?

4:30 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Association of Professional Immigration Consultants

Dory Jade

Number one would be to provide access to the process of the file—so tracking, as I've already said.

Number two would be to cut processing time across the board. We have been asking for this for 25 years, and I believe that this government is doing the same as previous governments in terms of processing time.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

What does that mean for you?

4:30 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Jenny Kwan

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Jade. I'm sorry, but time is up.

4:30 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Association of Professional Immigration Consultants

Dory Jade

Thank you.

4:30 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Jenny Kwan

To both the witnesses, if you have any suggestions, you're welcome to submit those suggestions to the clerk's office, and they'll be shared with all the committee members.

Thank you so much to our witnesses.

With that, we'll suspend for a minute, and then we'll start with our next set of witnesses.

Thank you so much.

4:30 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Association of Professional Immigration Consultants

Dory Jade

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, everyone.

4:30 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Jenny Kwan

All right, committee members, we're going to get started again.

I see that both our witnesses are at their spots, so we'll get under way.

Our next round is from 4:30 p.m. to 5:30 p.m. We have Mr. Richard Kurland, as an individual; he is a lawyer and policy analyst. We also have Mr. David Nurse, who is counsel with McInnes Cooper.

We'll start with Mr. Kurland for seven minutes.

4:30 p.m.

Richard Kurland Lawyer and Policy Analyst, As an Individual

Thank you for the honour and privilege of appearing here today.

I have only seven minutes.

I'll speak on two topics. The first is modernization of the way people get to understand how to use the immigration system, and the second is the modernization of the way of processing immigration cases.

I'd like to share excerpts of a very high-level senior management memo, obtained under access to information. CIC, now IRCC, is now implementing the next wave of tools to facilitate case processing and improve program integrity.

This is what the memo says about the scope of the project:

Create a smart front-end application interface...for all major lines of business which will not only guide clients towards the right program but will move them seamlessly into the application process itself, resulting in fully electronic application submissions;

Automate defined steps in the processing of an application...and moving towards the automation of simple, straightforward decision;

Automate the triage and distribution of workload based on the complexity and impact of the applications, taking into consideration authority levels and operational capacity both in Canada and abroad.

Putting this simply, it would not only be handling application intake but also making initial identity and eligibility checks, as well as pulling information for admissibility. The expectation is that the status of the application will be available electronically and instantaneously, similar to what is available through the tools used by Amazon and other major online retailers.

That was back in August 2015. Here's something more recent:

Key accomplishments to date: in just over 18 months, [IRCC] has built the capabilities for predictive analytics from scratch.

Business lines include temporary resident visas, study permits, extensions, eTAs, and the international experience Canada program, among others.

The memo adds:

[IRCC] has established strong relationships with other federal departments (including CBSA, CRA, and PCO) and countries (including in the U.S., the U.K. and Australia).

The 18 months would have been up in March 2016.

Is this the first you're hearing about the modernization? This is the heart and soul of IRCC's modernization of client service. Here's why perhaps it has not come to light, and I quote:

It is only legislation and public perception that will limit what decisions could be automated in future.

To paraphrase from the memo, artificial intelligence and automated decision making could pose a significant public confidence challenge.

I would recommend requesting IRCC to appear and explain its artificial intelligence decision-making system, because that's the very heart of our modernization system.

Second, IRCC should table that website design. This is the core of the new, modernized intake system that explains to the world at large how to get into the Canadian immigration system for either temporary status, permanent residency status, or information that they require no document whatsoever. If we were to build a bridge across the Rideau, when is the design disclosed? Is it at the ribbon-cutting ceremony after the money is spent, or a little earlier?

Those are my seven minutes, Madam Chair.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Borys Wrzesnewskyj

Thank you, Mr. Kurland.

Mr. Nurse, you have seven minutes.

4:35 p.m.

David Nurse Counsel, McInnes Cooper, As an Individual

Thank you very much.

I'd like to begin by thanking all committee members for the invitation to appear here today. It is a privilege, as my colleague said, to have the opportunity to speak to you today on this important subject.

As noted, I'm counsel with the Atlantic-Canadian firm McInnes Cooper, and my practice is focused almost exclusively on economic immigration, work permit applications, and permanent resident applications for professionals across many sectors, including health care and information technology. I also assist clients in making family class applications, including spousal sponsorships.

Prior to re-entering private practice in 2013, I served as the director of programs and corporate initiatives with the Nova Scotia Office of Immigration, and for these reasons I'll focus my comments primarily on issues related to the economic immigration programs, including the processing of the nominee program applications.

As noted, I'm here in my personal capacity as an immigration lawyer and not as a representative of the Canadian Bar Association or any other group.

Client service is such a large subject. I struggled to identify the key points I wanted to cover. I don't have a top 10. I don't think there's enough time. I have a top four, so I'll essentially ask you to take away these points from my comments.

The first is that IRCC deserves credit for improvements that have been made under this government and under the previous government.

Point number two is that applicants should be at the centre of all modernization efforts; three is that non-express entry applicants should not be left behind in the department's modernization efforts; and finally, lawyers should play a vital role in the immigration system, and this should be considered by IRCC as they continue their work in this area.

Before preparing my notes today, I had the opportunity to listen to the presentation by IRCC officials, including Robert Orr, which was made to you at your last meeting. I think it's important to give credit where credit is due, and to acknowledge that IRCC has implemented and promised further positive innovations. Mr. Orr and his colleagues touched on some positive changes in their comments, including the planned improvements to the call centre, both in terms of the scripts that staff are going to be instructed to use and in terms of the tone. In my view, this is desperately needed.

As many have, I've personally found it very difficult to navigate the call centre. On many occasions I've navigated myself into a dead end. Either I've been disconnected or I was sitting there with a dead phone, wondering how clients manage this. When I have gotten through to agents, they are often but not always somewhat abrupt and unhelpful. Clients have reported similar experiences. The improvements that Mr. Orr announced at your last meeting are overdue, in my view, but very welcome.

Express entry is another area where IRCC does deserve credit. Starting under the previous government, the introduction of express entry was, in my view, a dramatic and a positive change. Requiring upfront language tests and education credential assessments has required more work by applicants, but it results in more complete applications, which are ready for immediate and quick assessment.

In my own practice, I've seen express entry applications for permanent residents completed, from application to approval, in as little as six or seven weeks. This, in my view, is fantastic, and should be applauded. However, this fast processing is not seen across all application categories, and I'll come back to that in my comments.

My second point is that IRCC should continue to focus on humanizing the process for applicants. The system is truly faceless, and clients understand quickly that it is nearly impossible for them to get useful information on their applications from the IRCC call centre or website at this time. Perhaps this is now changing, and I greet Mr. Orr's comments on call centre improvement with cautious optimism.

I canvassed clients before my appearance today, and this is a quote from one client who is unhappy with IRCC service. This is the quote:

The current system has failed us on so many levels, the biggest three are: compassion, timely response and communication. Immigration is not a product, it is about people.

While this reflects a negative experience of that client, it is not the experience of all, but it is the experience of too many, in my view, and this must change.

My third and final points are more technical in nature.

The third is that the non-express entry streams and applicants should not be left behind in the modernization effort. In my practice, I am seeing dramatic differences between the processing of the express entry and the non-express entry applications. Specifically, I am speaking about Nova Scotia nominee program applications or other provincial nominee program applications.

As you may be aware, these applications continue to be made on paper to CIO Sydney and, in my experience, they are taking 15 to 18 months, on average, to process. You can see the inequity there, in that last week I had two applications approved and reaching finalization. One was filed in March of last year, I believe, and one was filed on October 13. It's hard to reconcile that in my mind. While it is possible to link the paper applications to Sydney to the online portal for lawyers, it certainly feels that this class of applications is no longer a processing priority for IRCC.

A related concern that I have on this area with respect to nominee programs is that innovation in provincial programs may be sacrificed to speed. IRCC has been pushing to align the provincial nominee programs more and more with IRCC policy, and this does risk a loss of innovation, in my view.

My fourth and final point is that modernizing the system and improving client service should not have the indirect result of making it more difficult for applicants to get needed advice and assistance from lawyers and consultants.

When I worked with the Nova Scotia Office of Immigration during the period from 2006 to 2013, we often took pains to emphasize to people that you don't need a lawyer or a consultant to complete your application. This was driven by a concern at that time about unscrupulous consultants and other—

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Borys Wrzesnewskyj

Mr. Nurse, could you wrap up, please?

4:45 p.m.

Counsel, McInnes Cooper, As an Individual

David Nurse

I'm sorry. I didn't realize I was over time. One more moment and I'll be finished.

While it was technically true, I think we overstated that. I think lawyers play a critical role in the system, and that should be considered in IRCC as they do their design.

Thank you.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Borys Wrzesnewskyj

Thank you, Mr. Nurse.

Go ahead, Ms. Zahid, please, for seven minutes.

December 13th, 2016 / 4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Salma Zahid Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank Mr. Kurland and Mr. Nurse for appearing before the committee today.

My first question is for you, Mr. Kurland.

Welcome back to the committee. As we all know, you have been involved with our immigration department for some time. Do you have a sense of when so much of the casework burden for immigration cases that have fallen through the system began to fall on MPs' offices? Why is this the case?

4:45 p.m.

Lawyer and Policy Analyst, As an Individual

Richard Kurland

That's a good one. The trend began in earnest after a test run maybe eight to 10 years ago. The trend accelerated four years ago.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Salma Zahid Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON

Is there any specific reason for that?

4:45 p.m.

Lawyer and Policy Analyst, As an Individual

Richard Kurland

There is no evidence available upon which to base a reliable answer.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Salma Zahid Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON

Mr. Nurse, would you like to add to this if you know of any specific reasons this happened?