Evidence of meeting #68 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was labour.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Adam Mugridge  Product Development Manager, Louisbourg Seafoods Ltd.
Wadih Fares  President and Chief Executive Officer, W.M. Fares Group
Gerry Mills  Executive Director, Immigrant Services Association of Nova Scotia
Suzanne Ley  Executive Director, Nova Scotia Office of Immigration

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Borys Wrzesnewskyj

Committee members, I would like to begin our meeting. Welcome to our guests.

Before we proceed today, I would like to take a moment to address the point of order raised by Mr. Sarai at the previous meeting regarding the divulgence of in camera decisions.

I'd like to let all members of the committee know that such matters are not taken lightly, and I've taken some time to look at the question in more depth. After reviewing the blues, it was clear that Ms. Rempel was referencing unanimous decisions made in the House, not in the committee. The chair can understand where the confusion arose, as there were a few interruptions during the last meeting. However, between Ms. Rempel's explanation and the blues, I am satisfied that no in camera decisions were referenced.

I'd like to thank Mr. Sarai for bringing this important issue to the attention of the committee, and once again I'd invite all members to be cautious when referencing matters stated at previous meetings in general. Thank you.

We'll proceed to our hearing. Pursuant to the order of reference received from the House on Wednesday, November 2, 2016, the committee will resume its study on Motion No. 39, regarding immigration to Atlantic Canada.

We have before us by video conference Mr. Adam Mugridge, product development manager with Louisbourg Seafoods Ltd. We also have appearing together in person before the committee, from the W.M. Fares Group, Mr. Wadih Fares, president and chief executive officer, and from the Nova Scotia Office of Immigration, Suzanne Ley, executive director. From Immigrant Services Association of Nova Scotia, we have Gerry Mills, executive director, by video conference.

Welcome to all.

Mr. Mugridge, the floor is yours. You have seven minutes.

June 19th, 2017 / 4:35 p.m.

Adam Mugridge Product Development Manager, Louisbourg Seafoods Ltd.

Good afternoon, committee. Thank you for allowing me and my company the opportunity to speak about such an important topic.

I feel that, regarding the topic, our company is well qualified to speak on the matter, specifically in terms of our experiences with labour and the shortfalls and challenges we've experienced with labour. Our company operates in rural coastal Cape Breton, Nova Scotia. I was looking at recent statistics, and in our area, population changes between the years 2010 and 2014 were -4.7% to -9.9% in Cape Breton, Victoria, and Guysborough counties, where we operate.

Speaking personally on the matter, I've seen the shrinking of our population base first-hand. I am 37 years old. I'm a native Cape Bretoner, born and raised, and I feel fortunate to have been able to stay in my hometown with a good career. Many of my friends have moved on to western Canada, to northern Alberta or B.C., or to Ontario. It's very much the norm for most of my friends. The people I went to high school with or graduated with have mostly all moved on, with some exceptions, of course.

Our company, Louisbourg Seafoods, is involved in the harvest, the off-load, the processing, and the sales and marketing of seafood products. This ranges from such species as snow crab, lobster, cold-water shrimp, and groundfish like cod, haddock, halibut, and redfish. It also includes new fisheries, such as sea cucumber, whelk, and hagfish. It ranges from seaweed harvesting to aquaculture as well—mussels, kelp, oysters, and products like that. We're located in small coastal towns like Louisbourg, Glace Bay, North Sydney, and Canso.

In all, our company employs over 500 people in these places in a variety of jobs, from processing to sales to accounting and office administration. The list goes on. When we're at 500 people, we're at our peak. We are a seasonal industry. We can't escape that, even though we try to do our best to avoid the seasonality. The amount of 500 jobs is significant anywhere, but in our areas, in our communities, it's even more so. Given the small populations of the communities we live in, it's important.

To many, the fishing industry is seen as old-fashioned and as somewhat of a relic of the past. If truth be told, in some ways there are instances of this, but in many ways, and I'm fortunate to be able to say this, the fishery is unique. It's exciting. It's innovative. For me it represents such a tremendous opportunity for our region and our communities. The potential to grow the value of our industry is tremendous. To make the most out of our extremely valuable resources is our company's goal, and it should be the goal of the entire industry.

In order to do this, it all requires people. It really comes down to the people who make this happen, and this is where we run into a very big problem. For our business, we need access to reliable and productive labour. The average age in our processing plants is 58. We try to recruit younger people into our operations. We are successful in some cases, but in most cases we're not always successful.

In terms of our philosophy for our workforce and our labour force, our company is very community-minded. We view the fishery as something that should benefit the community and not just the companies that operate in the community. Good local jobs should be a part of the fishery for the community. Otherwise, we ask ourselves, why are we doing it? This really ties into the tradition, I believe, of our fisheries. The reasoning behind this is that in small, rural coastal communities, you have nothing else. That's why they were founded. That's why they exist. It's because of the fisheries. The importance of that can't be lost.

We recognized probably a decade ago the challenge that we were going to have in labour. We decided that, for us, our company would implement a structure that exists somewhat loosely in the following way. First, 33% of our workforce consists of our core workers, our local, traditional workers who since 1984 have always worked for us. They come back year after year, and they're our solid workforce.

We have what we'll call transient workers, or the people that come and go, essentially. This would be recruiting of young people, like high school students, who will work in the summer at the peak periods. These are short-term workers with a relatively high turnover. There's also a strategy to employ 33% of either temporary foreign workers or immigration-based labour. We've looked closely at that and have had our share of challenges. At the same time, our company embraces automation when the time is appropriate and we will make some serious decisions about investing in automation when the time is right.

We've looked at the labour situation and we recognize that we, as a company, can make changes to improve conditions and retain our workers. This doesn't apply to just the current workforce and current residents of our communities but also new immigrants.

Number one, as I had mentioned, is seasonality. Nobody wants to work for several weeks or several months and then be on employment insurance, so we've taken an approach to reduce the seasonality of our workforce. We've embraced new fisheries, such as sea cucumbers and whelk, to add shoulder seasons to our core processing season, so that people can have a full-time job.

Second is training and professionalization, investing in our workforce so that they take pride in their work and view their jobs more as a skilled tradesperson, rather than just as a fish plant worker.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Borys Wrzesnewskyj

Mr. Mugridge, you have 20 seconds please.

4:40 p.m.

Product Development Manager, Louisbourg Seafoods Ltd.

Adam Mugridge

Finally, there was increased wages and benefits. It's hard work and the labour market is competitive in some aspects. Why should they make the same doing difficult fish plant work, rather than something else? To summarize—

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Borys Wrzesnewskyj

Thank you.

Mr. Fares, I understand you'll be speaking on behalf of the witnesses before us, so you have seven minutes. The floor is yours.

4:40 p.m.

Wadih Fares President and Chief Executive Officer, W.M. Fares Group

Thank you, Mr. Chair, members of the committee, ladies and gentlemen.

As was mentioned, my name is Wadih Fares. I am the president and CEO of W.M. Fares Group, a real estate design and development firm in Halifax. With me today is Suzanne Ley, executive director of Nova Scotia Office of Immigration. It is an honour and privilege to appear here today to speak on a topic near and dear to my heart: immigration.

I am an immigrant. More than 30 years ago I left Lebanon to come to Nova Scotia to study. Upon receiving my citizenship, I became a Canadian living in Nova Scotia. Today I am a Nova Scotian choosing to live and work in Nova Scotia.

I strongly believe immigrants add immediate and long-term value to our businesses and communities. They bring new points of view, new ideas, and new ways of doing things. They create a stronger, more robust economy. They help us grow our population, build our province, and make Nova Scotia a vibrant, dynamic society. For all these reasons, immigration is critical to the future success and sustainability of Nova Scotia. That is why in 2014 I accepted an invitation from Premier Stephen McNeil to co-chair his advisory council on immigration.

I am pleased to be here today to share my perspective on the opportunities, the challenges, and what action by the federal government is required to advance Nova Scotia's immigration priorities and initiatives.

We have spent a lot of time over the past couple of years in discussions with the federal government to increase the number of immigrants coming to Nova Scotia. We have met with all officials and stakeholders. We have sat with ministers and staff and all the decision-makers, and the result is that we are making progress. Together and with the strong leadership of our minister, Minister Lena Diab, and her staff, we are achieving results in Nova Scotia.

In 2016 it was a record year for immigration in Nova Scotia, and 2017 is shaping up to be another successful year. Last year we welcomed nearly 5,500 new people to our province, the highest number of immigrants since the Second World War. That increase was due to the strength of our provincial nominee program, as well as our response to the Syrian refugee crisis. Nova Scotia welcomed over 1,500 Syrian refugees through government-assisted, private, and blended sponsorships. This is a significant increase compared with previous years in which our province typically resettled only about 200 refugees.

Not only is it important that we bring more immigrants to the province, it is also important that we provide the settlement and community support to allow them to stay and integrate into the life of the province. I am pleased to say that overall, newcomers to Nova Scotia are doing well. They are twice as likely to work in their profession than in almost every other province. According to data compiled by the Immigrant Services Association of Nova Scotia, 71% of immigrant businesses in Nova Scotia will still be open after three years, compared to the Canadian average of 48%. Rates of employment insurance used by immigrants in our province are lower than in Canada overall, and about 87.5% of Nova Scotia nominees between 2011 and 2016 were employed.

We have a strong network of settlement services throughout the province to support the integration of newcomers through language, employment bridging, workplace culture, employer engagement, family crisis, and computer and technical training programs. The most recent data available in 2014 shows that 73% of people who landed in Nova Scotia between 2009 and 2013 were still living here. In the early 2000s less than half were staying. That's a big improvement, and the Nova Scotia Office of Immigration will continue to support these programs.

Another recent success was the launch of the Atlantic immigration pilot this past March. As you are aware, it is part of the federal government's Atlantic growth strategy.

The Atlantic pilot is a significant opportunity for Nova Scotia, which will help employers hire foreign workers and international graduates. We hear from Nova Scotia businesses that one of the main challenges they have for growth is lack of staff. The Atlantic pilot provides an opportunity for Nova Scotia businesses to address these labour gaps.

We are encouraged by the Atlantic immigration pilot and its many positive attributes: flexibility around criteria, the speed of processing, the focus on retention, and the numbers. So far, 209 employers in Nova Scotia have applied for designation, and of those, 123 have already been granted designation. We are very optimistic about the program's early success.

In my role as a premier adviser, I hear from employers that immigration is complicated and time-consuming. Some employers are not aware of immigration as a tool for addressing ongoing labour gaps. That is why the Nova Scotia Office of Immigration will assist employers in navigating the immigration system and maximizing the opportunities available with immigration. One of the unexpected benefits of the Atlantic immigration pilot is that more employers will learn about the benefits of using immigration as a tool to fill persistent labour-market needs. All programs can benefit.

Because of the interest generated in the Atlantic immigration pilot and our provincial government's ability to work with employers—

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Borys Wrzesnewskyj

You have 20 seconds, please.

4:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, W.M. Fares Group

Wadih Fares

—on which pathway is more suitable, we are already further ahead.

Going forward, the office of immigration will assist employees and employers, but the federal government is our key partner. You have the lion's share of control to set national policies. Appearing before you today, I would urge the federal government to ensure it has sufficient resources to process all applications in a timely manner, including the new Atlantic immigration pilot and all provincial nominees.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Borys Wrzesnewskyj

Thank you, Mr. Fares.

Ms. Mills, you have seven minutes.

4:50 p.m.

Gerry Mills Executive Director, Immigrant Services Association of Nova Scotia

Thank you for the opportunity to appear before the House of Commons standing committee. ISANS is the only multi-service settlement agency in Nova Scotia and the largest immigrant settlement agency in the Atlantic region. We've been operating for 35 years.

I'm sure you know how critical immigration is to the province and how the demographic challenges that face us are now constantly in our public discourse. Communities are shrinking, and employers are now really hurting and in many cases unable to meet their workforce needs. We just heard that.

Increased immigration is central to our future, but please don't take away from this that immigration is not working in Nova Scotia, because it is. Our numbers are increasing. As Wadih said, our retention rate has increased from 45% in the 1990s to 73%. Employers and communities are engaged. We have a unique approach to regulated professions that has led to immigrants in Nova Scotia, as Wadih said, being twice as likely to be working in their professions. The exam pass rates for internationally educated pharmacists, physicians, and engineers is way above the national average. Economic principle applicants and family-sponsored spouses have higher earnings in Nova Scotia than immigrants nationally.

Immigration is working in Nova Scotia, but we need more and we need to keep more. Here are a few things that would help.

Firstly, resource the Atlantic immigration pilot. To bring you up to date, ISANS has developed 123 settlement plans to date, 109 outside Canada for all the four provinces, and a total of 74 for Nova Scotia both in and outside Canada. The pilot is based on the premise of the need for retention in the Atlantic provinces, and it's assumed that the added responsibilities placed on employers will increase that retention. The whole pilot has been developed with this in mind.

While we're excited about the opportunity and working really hard to make it work—in fact, determined to make it work—the process is complicated. It demands a lot from the employer, mostly SMEs who have neither experience in nor resources to respond to the settlement needs of their employees.

If we're really determined to make this work, we need to resource the pilot. The AIP is a priority for us. We've had hundreds and hundreds of calls, and to respond to employers, employees, individuals, and communities, we need some coordination around it. This is not business as usual, and if we have learned anything in the last few years in Nova Scotia, it's that our increased retention rate is due to two things: better selection and increased investment in settlement services.

In addition, we need to make settlement programs accessible to the applicant sooner. Right now we're doing needs assessments for AIP clients. We're telling them this is what you need and these are the programs you should access, but right now you can't because you're not a permanent resident and you're not eligible. For the pilot we've amended eligibility for them to allow them to receive a settlement plan before they become a PR.

I suspect the rejection rate by IRC of AIP applicants is really negligible. We know they will access these programs once they become a permanent resident. Also, we want them to integrate more quickly. We want the spouses to access the labour market sooner. We know from our research on our regular pre-arrival programs that 78% of clients are working within six months of arrival. Let's make AIP clients eligible for federally funded programs upon endorsement of their application.

Secondly, we need increased flexibility around the PNP, provincial nominee program. If we're seeking ideas how to increase and retain immigrants to the Atlantic, we know people bring people to a community and we know people keep people in a community.

In Nova Scotia, we had a very successful program that worked with the existing communities to bring people. For example, the local Jewish community worked with the province to bring Russian Jews to Nova Scotia who were finding it difficult to settle in Israel. Around 250 to 300 people came, and only one or two families left. Of course they didn't leave. They had support. The local Jewish community helped to integrate them to resources, work, schools, etc.

For various reasons, the program didn't continue. I know there have been problems in the PNP in some of the provinces. I know that Nova Scotia had its own unique challenge, but we need some flexibility. Here's a pilot ready for the making, a community-supported immigration pilot that uses some of the best elements of Canada's enormously successful privately sponsored refugee program, engagement of communities to attract, support, and retain immigrants.

Provinces don't retain people. People retain people. I'm suggesting that the federal government allow opportunity for some additional pilots outside of the AIP. Nova Scotia has demonstrated over the last few years its commitment to immigration and its ability to settle and retain immigrants. Provide us with some additional tools to do so.

Before I leave the PNP, I have to take the opportunity to speak to the caps on the provincial nominees. While I fully support the AIP, it's the nominee program that has allowed the province to significantly increase its numbers of immigrants for the past few years.

We currently have a cap of 1,350. We've never failed to reach that nomination number. Most of our immigrants to Nova Scotia come through the PNP stream. If the federal government is truly interested in increasing immigration to the Atlantic, raise or eliminate the caps. The arguments that I've heard against it—that people don't stay, that increasing those numbers would decrease numbers in the federal economic stream—I don't understand. Seventy-three per cent of people do stay, and certainly most PNs stay. Also, provinces know who they need in their communities and workforce. Let them nominate them, and in Atlantic Canada let's attract to retain. Eliminating those caps for a pilot for a few years would have very little impact on the overall federal economic numbers.

Finally, I'd like to talk about refugees. Refugees are just PRs who came through a different immigration stream. They're having a significant impact on our communities right across the Atlantic, and ISANS is an organization supporting increased numbers of refugees, both government-assisted and private sponsorships. We know that means increased investment up front, but immigration needs a long-time vision. We're growing a province, and we're growing our communities, not just responding to labour market shortages. If we want to increase the number of immigrants into our province, we need to look at all immigration streams.

Already, our Syrian refugees are asking how to sponsor their family members. Many are not yet in a position to do so, but they will be and we want to have an answer for them. We know that refugees who carve out a life in Canada will have the resources to sponsor family members. When they bring those family members, they don't move anywhere.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Borys Wrzesnewskyj

You have 20 seconds.

4:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Immigrant Services Association of Nova Scotia

Gerry Mills

We also know that the children of refugees do really well and that the Syrian refugee initiative opened up opportunities. Let's not lose the momentum, the goodwill, the support, that the Syrian refugee initiative engendered in Nova Scotia.

Thank you.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Borys Wrzesnewskyj

Thank you, Ms. Mills.

Mr. Fraser, the floor is yours. You have seven minutes.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, each of you, for being here today and joining us and sharing this information, which is going to be helpful and useful to our committee as we come up with recommendations to the government on this very important issue.

I am the member of Parliament for West Nova. I know how important immigration is to not only our province but my region in particular, where we're seeing labour shortages. We're seeing out-migration of younger people, as alluded to earlier. I really appreciate the fact that you took the time today to come and share your thoughts with us.

I'd like to start with you, Mr. Fares, if I could. You mentioned that you co-chair the council on Nova Scotia Immigration. I know the good work that has already been undertaken, and I appreciate that very much. As alluded to a moment ago, there are good-news stories happening on immigration, in Nova Scotia in particular. You talked about employer engagement. I wonder if you could expand on that a little bit, especially now that we're seeing applications into the Atlantic immigration pilot project, and talk about why it's so important to engage employers and make sure that we're meeting the needs or fitting the needs of the labour force right across Nova Scotia.

5 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, W.M. Fares Group

Wadih Fares

At the end of the day, for any immigration program to work, the business community will have to be part of it and will have to be the main one pushing for it. Employers are the business community. In what we've done in Nova Scotia, I believe we were successful in promoting the programs that we were able to initiate ourselves as a province. Also, when the Atlantic pilot program came in, we promoted it within the business community and it's working very well.

You see, employers don't always know what's available to them. They know they have gaps or they have shortages, but they don't know what's available to them. That's what we're doing more and more in Nova Scotia. We're promoting the programs. For example, me and my co-chair, Dr. Colin Dodds, we're going out there and we're meeting face to face with the stakeholders. We have at least two or three meetings a month with different business groups to explain what's available. That's why you see the success rate from the business community using the immigration programs, and that's why we want to make sure we keep them.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS

Do you think it's important, not only to match up new immigrants to Nova Scotia with employers that have openings and obviously labour shortage issues, but also to do that work on the front end so that the retention rates of those newcomers to Nova Scotia are higher because they have jobs that are satisfactory to their skills and their abilities?

5 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, W.M. Fares Group

Wadih Fares

Obviously, for an employer to be accepted and approved, to be designated, a lot of research and assessment must go toward that application. Once the employer is approved, that means it's a good employer. We are sure that they are going to give good jobs and take care of the newcomers and the foreign workers. That's why we believe we'll be very successful.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS

Suzanne, do you see interest in the new Atlantic immigration program across Nova Scotia, not just in Halifax?

5 p.m.

Suzanne Ley Executive Director, Nova Scotia Office of Immigration

Absolutely. We've had applications for designation from every region of the province, so it's really encouraging. As Mr. Fares mentioned, we are hearing from employers who have never considered immigration as a tool to fill their market needs. It's extremely positive for us—small enterprises, very big companies, and a range of occupations and sectors across the province.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS

Thank you very much.

Mr. Mugridge, in talking about your company, Louisbourg Seafoods, you mentioned the different segments of your labour force—a third, a third, and a third—and 33% of that workforce you described as solid, long-term career employees. Can you talk a bit about why it's important to have different segments within your company to support their work? Would you be able to do it with just the 33% of employees who are there long term, without support from other people coming in?

5 p.m.

Product Development Manager, Louisbourg Seafoods Ltd.

Adam Mugridge

No, we absolutely would not be able to meet our labour needs with that one third of the workforce. My point in mentioning why we have a third, a third, and a third of employees is that this is how the reality has been within our industry. That's how it has happened. Now, in planning for the future, what we are seeing is that there absolutely is a need for workers from elsewhere, either immigrants or temporary foreign workers, or what have you.

The unemployment rates in our areas in some cases are upwards of 30%. When we see that, we ask ourselves, “If that many people are out of work, why can't we get workers?” We've looked internally for that, and we've looked at some improvements we can make internally to make the jobs more attractive to existing workers in order to retain them, as well as to the communities that we exist in now and to the immigrant workers.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS

Would you agree that bringing in new immigrants with permanent residency and a proper fit in the community, and welcoming the family for the long term to eventually perhaps become Canadian citizens, would be preferable to a temporary foreign worker program for your company?

5:05 p.m.

Product Development Manager, Louisbourg Seafoods Ltd.

Adam Mugridge

Yes, I would agree with that. Bringing in immigrants would solve the issues of the community first, before it solves any issues of labour that we have within our industry. I think it's more important to strengthen the community rather than solve any labour needs that a business has.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS

Great. Thanks very much.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Borys Wrzesnewskyj

Thank you.

Mr. Saroya, you have seven minutes. The floor is yours.