Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Oct. 5th, 2017

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the ministers and officials for coming.

Minister Goodale, it's our understanding—and this is from front-line CBSA officers who are worried about talking to MPs for fear of losing their job—that the normal initial process—

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

There's no reason at all for that fear.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

—in dealing with regular asylum seekers usually takes about eight hours. This is the initial process. However, these same CBSA officers are now saying that the processing time for illegal border crossing, initially, has dropped to one and a half to two hours. That drastic reduction in initial processing time leads Canadians to wonder what is being cut out of the process to deal with these illegal border crossings.

Can you provide an explanation as to what you are not doing now that you would normally do for the illegal border crossers? What have you cut?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Mr. Chair, through this whole process over the last number of months, I have constantly sought advice from CBSA about how to handle the volume that they have to deal with in a timely way and in a way that does not in any manner short-circuit the security issues that need to be dealt with. I have been assured repeatedly by CBSA that there is no compromise on security.

They have internally reallocated resources in order to make sure that they have the personnel with the right skills and talents at the various border points that need that attention. They work seamlessly with the RCMP. The RCMP have also reallocated resources into the areas that are most affected.

CBSA, the RCMP, and the government have been absolutely vigilant in ensuring that the security process has not been compromised.

Let me just say that if you're hearing from CBSA officers who say that they are somehow reluctant to speak to a member of Parliament, they need not have any such reluctance. They're citizens of this country and are entitled to speak to their member of Parliament.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

I appreciate it.

Basically, what I'm hearing is that some processes have been cut and that the priority remains the security of Canadians. Could you or the CBSA department please provide to this committee in writing at your earliest convenience what processes have actually been cut? Then we can move on.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Your question implies some degradation of services, and that implication is just not appropriate. I will provide a description of how we have coped with the volume in a way that processes that volume efficiently and does not compromise on safety and security. Any implication to the contrary is simply inaccurate.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

With that explanation, the difference between how illegal border crossings are being processed now and how the regular ones were done before would make a good comparison. Thank you.

It's our understanding that in the shortened process, people who cross the border illegally undergo only a basic criminal history check, a criminal records check, and fingerprinting. After that, asylum seekers are told they can go and are asked to come back for a secondary meeting at some later point.

The CBSA officer we spoke to was telling us that some of these asylum seekers, as we said, are not showing up for the secondary hearings. If that's the case, how do we know where they are and who they are? What's happening with that whole process, and how many are not attending these particular hearings? Do we have any numbers on that?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

By the secondary hearing, I presume you're referring to the IRCC interview that determines whether or not they are then eligible to go before the IRB.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Yes. I mean the follow-up. Given the limited time, Mr. Minister, I apologize, but if you could just table those numbers for us, that would be great.

My last question is how does the government propose to deal with this serious issue of people not coming back for their secondary interviews, and what is their plan to restore public confidence in our ability to secure our border and make sure we mitigate the concerns of public safety around those who come in through an illegal process and don't follow the process as they should?

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

You have 17 seconds.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Chair, we will examine all of these questions very carefully to make sure we provide every bit of information we possibly can in response to the inquiries from various members of Parliament.

Let me just say that the implication, in this dump of innuendoes, that somehow the border is insecure and somehow the safety of the country is being compromised is absolutely wrong.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Tabbara, we have about four minutes.

Thank you.

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the ministers and departmental staff for being here today.

We just heard from the other side that processes have been cut. I want to talk about some of the false information and see if some of these processes have been cut.

Minister Hussen, you mentioned preferential treatment in your statement. You said there's false information about preferential treatment for asylum seekers and refugee claimants. These are completely separate application streams, as far as I'm aware. Can you please elaborate on that?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

That's a really important question. It deals with the implication that somehow the asylum claimants coming in are impacting or degrading our ability to meet our targets with respect to the other streams of immigration, whether it is family class, economic immigration, or the refugees resettled from overseas.

Nothing could be further from the truth, in the sense that asylum claimants are processed and then go before the IRB, so it's a different stream altogether. The rest of the immigration system consists of people who are processed, selected, and approved by the IRCC. There are two different streams, and therefore the suggestion that somehow an asylum claimant is taking the spot of an overseas resettled refugee is simply not supported by the facts.

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you for clarifying that.

My second question can be to either Minister Hussein or Minister Goodale.

With regard to collaboration between the federal and provincial governments to address irregular crossings, can you elaborate on what the ad hoc intergovernmental task force on irregular migration has been co-operating on?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

It has been an effort to make sure all of the federal agencies and all of the provincial agencies that are directly engaged in dealing with crossing issues are working effectively together. It has been an unprecedented but very good exercise.

The provincial ministers are at the table with the federal ministers. They constantly review and update the most recent information. They identify where the pressure points might be that need special attention. They work collaboratively with each other to make sure the solutions are deployed.

It has been a very good process, and it's one that may be replicated in other areas of federal-provincial-territorial circumstances that involve different agencies and different levels of government. It's very useful.

Ahmed.

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

I will use an example of what we've been able to do together to give you a sense of how useful the ad hoc task force has been.

The Government of Quebec approached us with a concern regarding the potential impact that the number of asylum seekers could have on their social assistance program. They asked us to assist them in expediting work permits for all asylum seekers so these people could support themselves while they wait for their IRB hearings. Because they identified that pressure point, we were able to then bring that concern back to our department, and IRCC was able to quickly move to address that pressure point and expedite the processing of work permits for all asylum seekers so we could minimize the impact they have on the provincial social assistance programs.

In a concrete way, that's an example of how the task force has been able to identify pressure points and work together to solve them collectively.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you, Ministers.

Thank you, Mr. Tabbara.

That draws to a close our time with you.

As is the chair's prerogative, I want to take one minute to thank the officials and to thank the ministers for not only their time but also their work on this.

Last week I had the opportunity to go to Manitoba, and I met with 11 of the asylum seekers who had crossed the border at Emerson, including the one Ms. Kwan mentioned today. Overwhelmingly, I was extremely proud to be a Canadian.

I asked for their stories about the border crossing and about the respect that the RCMP had offered to them, including making sure that they were medically treated and that they had food to eat. One offered a coat on a very cold day in January. CBSA told me the story, and as a Canadian I felt it was overwhelmingly positive to hear about the respect they were afforded and also the due process they were given, by the IRCC as well, of course. Two of them have had their hearings already with the IRB and were successfully determined to be in need of protection in Canada, and nine are awaiting postponed hearings.

We will keep pushing you on the IRB and on having resources.

I, not as an MP but as a Canadian, was overwhelmingly proud of your forces and officials and of the work you're doing, so thank you.

We're going to suspend the meeting as we change witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Committee members, let's regather.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order I would like to raise.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

I don't have quorum yet.

Committee members, would you please take your seats?

Go ahead.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I raise this as a point of order.

As we just heard from IRCC officials in response to a question that I asked, related in particular to irregular crossings being tracked by IRCC, a written response provided to us states that irregular crossings began being tracked in IRCC's systems only in early April 2017. As a result, claims made by those who entered since the start of 2017 cannot be reported on.

I asked this question about the information that needed to be provided to us from last year, because the irregular crossings began in the dead of winter. That information, in response to the question asked by a committee member, was not provided, and they said that they did not have the information.

We just heard, when I asked that question to the minister, who deferred it to his official, that they had that information.

How is it possible that we would have a written answer that's contradictory? We're not getting accurate information before us, and that, to me, is extremely troubling, Mr. Chair, so I raise this and bring this to your attention. I hope we don't have to go through these kinds of documents with inaccurate information before us, and I ask that you follow up with the official with regard to this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

I think the committee has the right to have accurate information that is requested; however, the witnesses also have the right to present the information they want to present. Our job is then to evaluate both of them, and the committee can request additional information.

If you're requesting additional information or an explanation, I think that's fair. We can simply do that, so I would rule that your point of order is okay, and we will ask for a clarification of the discrepancies that you think are there.

That's not going to be debated. I've ruled on it.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I just want to say thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Okay.

Witnesses, thank you very much for joining us today.

We recognize that the bulk of the work on this briefing has come from IRCC and Public Safety; however, there has been a wider—not quite whole-of-government but large—approach to this issue. Thank you for joining us today to offer thoughts from both Global Affairs and the Department of National Defence.

We welcome Mr. Cronin and Director General Bourgon.

Who would like to begin?

Mr. Cronin.