Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Oct. 16th, 2017

[Alaina Lockhart, Liberal, Fundy Royal, NB]

That's great. Thank you very much.

Ms. McDougall, you talked about the loss of 1,500 people and the $19-million impact on consumer spending. Are we saying that every time 1,500 people leave, the economy is negatively impacted by that amount? Is that the calculation?

[Amanda McDougall]

Yes, you can see it with the turnover in our small businesses. It's happening constantly.

When we do have a little bit of an increase.... For example, there was a Saudi cohort of students at Cape Breton University for a number years, which meant that we had an influx of, as I call them, newcomers. They were members of our communities, and there were more restaurants and more opportunities for artisans and vendors and that type of thing. That agreement between the Saudis and CBU ended, so what happened? Businesses shut down.

It's happening constantly. You can see it. You just have to walk on the island.

[Alaina Lockhart, Liberal, Fundy Royal, NB]

One of the things that's interesting about the Atlantic immigration pilot is that it's not only about the recruitment of specific workers for jobs that are identified by businesses, but also about being able to bring families with them.

Is that something you saw with the work you've done? Were there an increase in retention with a family and a potential economic impact of that?

[Amanda McDougall]

Specifically with regard to students, I know from our research—I will be able to provide the document I have and all of the survey responses to everybody here—that there was quite a bit of pressure put on the students by family members back home, wherever they were originally from, to make those connections in Cape Breton and to find a way to get a job after they graduate. Not only did they want to have their son or daughter successfully go through school, but they saw an opportunity to potentially bring their business to Canada, where it perhaps is much cheaper to purchase land. For example, maybe you have a textile company back home in a very small building and can buy a warehouse for a much more reasonable price in Cape Breton. I like to say “Cape Breton”. I'm a little biased.

However, yes, those families were waiting in line to come, but they simply couldn't navigate the immigration process. When our students were looking to go to their post-graduate work visa application, they were constantly struggling and worrying about how they would transition from post-grad to permanent residency with no immigration settlement services on the island. They would have to travel five hours down the line to see an immigration-specialized doctor to sign off on one piece of paper, and they would say, “I'm not staying in Cape Breton. I'm staying wherever the services are.” It was the students who told us that we need to have more services throughout the regions in order for our communities to continue.

[Alaina Lockhart, Liberal, Fundy Royal, NB]

That was my next question. You spoke about the barriers to immigration. It's about having the boots on the ground to provide those services. Do you see that both for employers and for immigrants?

[Amanda McDougall]

Yes, one hundred per cent. I would like to use an example, very quickly.

During my time at the university, we did see the response to the Syrian refugee crisis really ramp up. My role very quickly changed to one of helping to coordinate the communities around the island and to get together communities that were looking at the blended visa option and private sponsorship option for applying to bring families to Cape Breton. We don't have services on the island, so what happened was that we were going into these communities completely terrified, because we know the employers in the communities don't have the training or even just a bit of education on other cultures. We did it. We did it without the services.

That's not to say we should continue in that way, because we shouldn't put that burden on volunteers constantly, but we can do it. There was that excitement in saying, okay, yes, we are doing something wonderful to help another human being, but we're also taking it into our own hands to bring families here, because we know we need more people in order to continue as rural communities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you.

Mr. Maguire.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank our presenters today for their interventions in this committee as well. I appreciate them all.

Ms. McDougall, I had the opportunity to go through Cape Breton about a year ago in the fall, and I appreciate your concern.

There are growth areas, as you said, in tourism, and the fishing industry is still there, but you're saying that a long-term immigrant stay is five years and most of the immigrants are leaving after two. Can you elaborate on that a little?

[Penny Walsh McGuire]

Perhaps I could jump in here.

I had commented on the retention numbers from the province. Those numbers were directly reported from the province of P.E.I. I can speak to this more from the perspective of the entrepreneurial investor newcomers, the 500 clients whom we worked with last year. We've seen growth in that number since 2011 through the P.E.I. connectors program.

When we conduct round tables with clients who are interested in investing or opening a business in Prince Edward Island, a main concern they have is around pre-settlement and understanding what the environment they're walking into is like. We refer them to the idea of recruiting to retain. I don't want this to sound harsh, but this is what our clients are saying. if you're coming from Beijing and arriving in Charlottetown, although both the lifestyle and opportunity are visible, some of the market and environmental considerations are not always a part of the pre-settlement plan. We've heard a lot about recruiting to retain from our clients and advisers, and also from the business community in general.

Getting back to your question, 38% of international immigrants who move to Prince Edward Island are staying for five years, and some as short as two. I think it's often the PNP requirements that are driving this. It's about intention and recruiting to retain. Perhaps the pathway to P.E.I. is more of a pathway to Canada.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

You mentioned as well that retention and recruitment of international students, and of students, period, was key. However, I also notice that some of the provinces have increased their HST rates to 15%, for example, in New Brunswick, P.E.I., and Newfoundland and Labrador. We have carbon taxes going up, and the CPP tax hikes on families are impacting the lives of individuals as well. Can you comment on whether you think these tax increases from both federal and provincial governments are having any impact on population rates and immigration retention in your region? They certainly would in ours.

[Penny Walsh McGuire]

As a chamber of commerce, we love to talk about tax reduction for business owners, for consumers, and for retail. I'm leaving P.E.I. in about 15 minutes to drive to Halifax to present to the Standing Committee on Finance tomorrow morning. I suspect that conversation is going to focus a lot on taxes.

Certainly with regard to the business environment within which our PNP nominees and our P.E.I. connectors clients are operating, opportunities can't be considered if we don't consider the same environment that our local businesses are trying to operate in. P.E.I. is an environment that has some of the highest small business taxes and corporate taxes in the country, and I think they have other tax proposals looming. These are certainly of concern to not only the local business community, but also those newcomer businesses coming to P.E.I. and trying to set up operations.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thank you.

I'll allow your other colleagues who presented here today to comment on that if they wish.

[Amanda McDougall]

That's interesting. Now I kind of revert to my municipal hat. It's impossible to deal with those issues of higher taxes. Our residents are faced with that every day, but the only way we are going to be able to attack those issues is by getting more people in the area to contribute to our tax base. We can't go out and fight a fight with no money, to start with. It's one of those things. People tend not to connect immigration to economic development, but it's 100% connected. We need more people before we can actually fix those problems.

It's not deterring people from coming. In Sydney specifically there are five new restaurants that have popped up in the last couple of years, and all of them are owned by former international students who have stayed on and started a business. They wouldn't be able to do that if they went back home, because it would cost them way more. It's not necessarily the taxes, but the combination of many things, be it land, buying a structure, or hiring people. We are doing it, and if we can do it now, imagine what we could do if we had more people. We could bring those taxes down and make it even more appealing for more people to come.

You just have to get the people here. I guess it is like the chicken-and-egg business, but just get people here and we're good.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

I certainly agree. You've hit the nail right on the head, I think. If you can get more people there, you'll raise more tax. You don't have to raise the tax. If you get more people, you'll end up with more.

[Amanda McDougall]

I'm not good at math, but that's easy.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

I believe you mentioned using the Atlantic program, the AIP, to attract permanent residents, as opposed to those who are going to leave after two years, as Ms. McGuire indicated earlier.

We've seen that proportional change across Canada, from the east in the fifties to the west now. The proportional percentages of Canadians change. I'm wondering if you see the immigration role being retained in the eastern areas, because it is certainly needed.

[Amanda McDougall]

Yes. I think it will actually, as a result, bring more people home, which is great, but it is not necessary. Some people have made very good lives out west, and we are very grateful for the oil sands industry, which saved us in some times of turmoil, but yes, it will bring people home because we have more to offer, and our roads will probably be in better shape.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Benson, you have seven minutes.

[Sheri Benson, NDP, Saskatoon West, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the presenters today.

Madam d'Entremont, I would like to ask you a couple of questions specifically, because you've brought a different perspective to the conversation today than we've heard from others, but in some ways you haven't. We heard from both panels today that the support that is needed within the communities with regard to retention is around language training and support for families. In Ms. McDougall's example, you need government services close by in order to help facilitate the process of immigration.

What are your thoughts on the need to have those support services in French, in a province that has a requirement, constitutionally, to support the French-language population? Is that something that you looked at as one of the reasons there were more immigrants with English as an additional language coming than those with French? Does that make sense?

I'm trying to link the front-line piece, the community supports, to your goals for the province.

[Katherine d'Entremont]

For sure, the support services need to be available en français—

[Sheri Benson, NDP, Saskatoon West, SK]

Oui.

[Katherine d'Entremont]

—but I think the challenge comes before that. The challenge is the recruitment and where the Province of New Brunswick goes to recruit, as supported by the federal government. I have to say that in the Canada-New Brunswick agreement, which was the first one signed of all the provinces' agreements, the language is a little timid.

I talked to you today about the 33%. There's nothing I see in that agreement.... I was looking at it this afternoon just to refresh my memory. The federal government uses the language “increase” francophone immigration to New Brunswick. I've never seen it stated that the federal government acknowledges that New Brunswick has set a goal. New Brunswick has set a goal of 33% francophone immigration.

I'm not sure about the language in the agreement. I could stand corrected, Monsieur Cormier, but I didn't see the kind of strong language that there should be in an agreement where New Brunswick has set a goal, with clear targets, to achieve 33% by 2020.

You have to realize that because francophone immigration to New Brunswick was hovering around 12% for many years, in setting a 33% target there's catch-up to do. Plus, because of lack of retention, if you set a goal of 33%, what are you going to retain? To me, that is where it all starts. Of course, in New Brunswick we have a network of support services, integration services, and language training in English and in French, as some of you who are more familiar with New Brunswick would know, but in our education system, we have duality. Pretty much everywhere in New Brunswick in the larger centres, newly arrived folks can choose to send their children to either French school or English school. Plus, we have French immersion in the English districts, and we have francophone school districts and anglophone school districts.

To me, in New Brunswick, this is not about a lack of services. In the early years, there were some networks of organizations that provided services in French. To me, this has to start before that, by recognizing that the proportions are maintained no matter what the numbers are that come to New Brunswick. Right now, the provincial government is able to attract somewhere between 17% and 20% francophones. Depending on which stats we look at, it's hovering around the 20% mark, but the goal is 33% by 2020. It has been 12% for years, and with a declining population—we're the only province in the country whose population has declined—immigration is really key. Because New Brunswick has a large minority population, when you folks speak about francophone immigration outside Quebec and use numbers like 4% and 5%, that doesn't resonate with us in New Brunswick. I know that's an average across Canada outside Quebec, but we're talking about 33% when the rest of the country is hovering around 4% or 5%. If there's one thing I leave you with today that you remember, I hope that's it.

Our minority community is a large one in comparison to francophone minority communities in other provinces in Canada. That's why our demographic balance linguistically has to be maintained. In your agreements with New Brunswick, I urge you to consider and to recognize as a federal government our reality, a reality that stems from the Constitution and so on, and that is particular to New Brunswick.

[Sheri Benson, NDP, Saskatoon West, SK]

Thank you.

Are you concerned? Well, I guess you are. Would you have preferred to have hard numbers in that agreement instead of just having the word “increasing”? To me, then, it's hard to be accountable. It's hard to know if you're getting towards where you want to be if there's no way to measure or to know how you'll know when you arrive.

[Katherine d'Entremont]

Take a statement like the one New Brunswick has made, for example. New Brunswick has set a goal to maintain the “linguistic balance” of the two communities. The federal language doesn't say that. It simply says “increase” francophone immigration. How you do that goes back to the experts who are actually running the programs. But at least at a high level, if the federal government would recognize that, and if everything the federal government did to support the province had that as an overarching principle, then you could leave it to the immigration experts to figure out the how and when and who.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you.

We will continue with Mr. Sarai.